A very similar attack 11 days prior

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by ophion1031 on April 19th 2016, 11:13 pm

UKSpycatcher posted this on Morf's site and it is pretty fascinating!!


On September 30th 1969, 11 days prior to the murder of Paul Stine, a Chinese Yellow Cab driver in San Francisco picked up a fare at the Fairmont Hotel. The address is 950 Mason Street, supposedly where Zodiac picked up Paul Stine. The Fairmont is 0.4 miles from the Westin St Francis. The passenger rode in the front seat and asked the driver to go to Presidio Heights. Nearing the destination the passenger made a late change and asked the taxicab driver to continue. He initially asked the cabbie to go to the Washington and Locust intersection, just two blocks shy of Washington and Maple, but at the last minute asked the driver to proceed to Arguello into the west gate, saying "my girl left my car there." He pulled out a revolver, robbed 30-35 dollars and then locked the cabbie in the trunk. However the gunman relinquished the keys of the cab, when the taxicab driver pleaded he may suffocate, although he didn't let him out of the trunk. Fortunately he was discovered by military police.

Unfortunately he described the man as Caucasian, about 24 yrs, 5'9", black hair and weighing about 130-140 pounds, the last of which seems a little shy of the perceived Zodiac weight. On viewing the Paul Stine murder composite sketch, he said his observations differed, the man had longer hair, wore no glasses and was thinner. San Francisco Police Captain Martin Lee said there was an "amazing similarity' in the MO and "I'm inclined to believe it was Zodiac." I agree the MO is very similar, but the weight of the subject is way off, leading me to believe Captain Martin Lee is being extremely optimistic, unless Zodiac went to Weight Watchers and went on a starvation diet, coupled with running 1,000 miles a day. Nevertheless an interesting story I had never heard before.

Nevertheless I do agree with Captain Martin Lee in one respect when it comes to eyewitness recollections, in that they are not very accurate. He states "No two persons see the same thing, no matter what visual matter is involved. He has worked cases where a suspect who looked almost like a midget to one person, was seen by another witness as something of a giant. And when it comes to fast moving, emotion charged occurrences, you'd sometimes think witnesses were describing altogether different happenings."


Thoughts???
avatar
ophion1031

Posts : 3750
Join date : 2015-06-01
Location : Albuquerque

http://www.ophion1031.com

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by ophion1031 on April 19th 2016, 11:15 pm

What are the odds of this happening with the pickup location being the same and the attack location being that close? Did Zodiac do this and then figure "hmmm, the driver could ID me" so he or a friend then committed the Stine murder for whatever reason?
avatar
ophion1031

Posts : 3750
Join date : 2015-06-01
Location : Albuquerque

http://www.ophion1031.com

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by Don Pseuym on April 21st 2016, 9:50 am

I saw a newspaper article about the presideo area that in Jan 68 residents were complaining about couples using the U drives at Jackson and Maple and cherry for loverlanes and or hookers ,wanting to block them off . and told of a shooting or killing late one night in early 68 where a man just approached the couple and then hot the man the woman exited and ran away. thought it said police suspected the woman set him up but she said no

Don Pseuym

Posts : 592
Join date : 2015-08-22
Location : overland park KS

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by JohnFester on April 23rd 2016, 8:16 pm

Don, I had not read that before, thanks for sharing. Now the area of the Stine attack makes a little more sense.

Ophion, this is weird that the attack is that close in dates to the Stine attack and alot of similarities to it. Maybe not the same attacker but still could be a connection of some sorts.
avatar
JohnFester

Posts : 824
Join date : 2015-06-01
Age : 60
Location : Hollyweird, Calif.

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by Otto Van der Muellen on April 24th 2016, 10:16 pm

Another of the strange things of the case and maybe is same guy.
avatar
Otto Van der Muellen

Posts : 25
Join date : 2015-08-18
Age : 60
Location : Rotterdam, Netherlands

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by sandy betts on April 29th 2016, 11:22 pm

Thanks for that information about the description of the person who put the cab driver in the trunk. I knew about that robbery but never saw the description given.
It is not that far off of Kathleen John's description. I think Zodiac wore different wigs, which would make him look very different. I think that the chance that it was the same person doing a trial run is pretty good. I would like to know what the hair style was? I would also like to know more about the accident that Stine had prior to the shooting.

sandy betts

Posts : 359
Join date : 2016-03-22

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by ophion1031 on April 30th 2016, 9:16 pm

The attacker of Stine was described as being much bulkier, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be the same person. There are many ways a person can make themselves look heavier. If this was different people, then it is a hell of a coincidence.
avatar
ophion1031

Posts : 3750
Join date : 2015-06-01
Location : Albuquerque

http://www.ophion1031.com

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by sandy betts on April 30th 2016, 10:12 pm

The clothes on the shooter in the Stine case were loose and his pants were baggy.
I thought that there was a weight given by the officers who saw him on Jackson st? Somehow I thought I read that he looked to be about 180 pounds, barrel chested?
Maybe that was shown on the first composite which I have? For yrs I have been posting about how much lighter Stine's shooter was compared to Lake Berryessa Zodiac.

sandy betts

Posts : 359
Join date : 2016-03-22

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by ophion1031 on May 1st 2016, 8:36 pm

I think 180-200 and barrel chested is what I remember as well.
avatar
ophion1031

Posts : 3750
Join date : 2015-06-01
Location : Albuquerque

http://www.ophion1031.com

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by sandy betts on May 1st 2016, 11:28 pm

OK thanks I was worried that I might be losing it LOL.

sandy betts

Posts : 359
Join date : 2016-03-22

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by ophion1031 on May 2nd 2016, 10:38 pm

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was 180-200.
avatar
ophion1031

Posts : 3750
Join date : 2015-06-01
Location : Albuquerque

http://www.ophion1031.com

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by sandy betts on May 2nd 2016, 11:39 pm

Thanks

sandy betts

Posts : 359
Join date : 2016-03-22

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by sandy betts on May 3rd 2016, 5:53 pm


I found a old post that I did at Zkiller that confirms the weight that I found in a police report.
Details: Stine's cab was hailed at Mason and Geary Streets, with the intended destination being Washington and Maple Streets near the Presidio. For reasons unknown, the cab ended up at Washington and Cherry Streets, a block away from the original destination. Stine's wallet and keys were taken and a large portion of his shirt was carefully torn off. Bloody fingerprints, potentially of the suspect, were recovered from the vehicle. According to a police document, a pair of men's Size Seven black-leather gloves was also found. The three witnesses watched the suspect from approximately 60 feet away as he wiped down the cab with a cloth after killing Stine. They called the police and described a white male, 25 to 30 years old, 5'8" to 5'9", stocky build, reddish-brown hair worn in a crew cut, heavy-rimmed glasses and dark clothing. They last saw him casually walking north on Cherry Street. Unfortunately, the police dispatcher mistakingly described the suspect as being a black male adult. As a result, when patrol officers Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms minutes later observed a white man walking east on Jackson Street, he was never stopped and questioned. The officers did get a good look at him, however. When the correct description of the suspect was finally broadcast, the officers realized they might have encountered him. A search of the area where the man had been observed was conducted, to no avail. The man seen by Fouke and Zelms was very similar to the suspect observed by the three witnesses. He was white, 35 to 45 years old, 5'10", between 180 and 200 pounds, barrel chested, with light-colored, crewcut hair and wearing glasses.

sandy betts

Posts : 359
Join date : 2016-03-22

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by ophion1031 on May 4th 2016, 12:33 am

Fouke and Zelms got a better look and were closer. Plus, they were trained police officers. I have always thought their description would have been much better than that of some kids who were somewhat far away and didn't really have the greatest view from where they were at. But at the same time, I really don't know how good of a look Fouke and/or Zelms would have gotten either. It was dark out and I don't think either got within 50 yards, if I am remembering correctly.
avatar
ophion1031

Posts : 3750
Join date : 2015-06-01
Location : Albuquerque

http://www.ophion1031.com

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by sandy betts on February 1st 2017, 12:03 pm

Fouke's and Zelms were on the same side of the street as the person they saw, so they were pretty close to him, like maybe 5 yrds or less?

sandy betts

Posts : 359
Join date : 2016-03-22

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by ophion1031 on February 1st 2017, 8:17 pm

For some reason I never realized they were that close. I always thought they were a good distance away.
avatar
ophion1031

Posts : 3750
Join date : 2015-06-01
Location : Albuquerque

http://www.ophion1031.com

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by sandy betts on February 1st 2017, 10:11 pm

The teens were a good distance away about 60 feet I think? Jackson street is a normal size street, not wide though. Fouke's and Zelm's were headed west towards Cherry with Spruce behind them, so they were on the same side of the street as Zodiac,or who could have been Zodiac. Once they found out the perp was not African American,they made a U turn and went back but by then he was out of sight. last seen near Maple. At least that is what I understood. I have a bit of a problem with that, because the perp was seen walking up some stairs towards a landing of a home and later seen walking left on Maple. How did they see him twice? He couldn't be at both places at the same time.Or did Pelissetti last see him turning the corner at Maple? That was the direction he was headed.Once Zodiac jumped off the ledge at Maple and Pacific and turned right he could have been at the back door apt facing the playground.The police were not looking for someone living in the area, so Zodiac was safe and watching everything going on in his back yard,(the playground). That is what I believe happened,I can not state that as a fact.

sandy betts

Posts : 359
Join date : 2016-03-22

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by ophion1031 on February 1st 2017, 11:43 pm

I always figured that those kids didn't get as good a look at the killer as most people would think - it was dark and they were not all that close, but I also thought Fouke and/or Zelms may not have gotten as good a look as people thought as well. But they must have, now knowing they were a lot closer that I thought.

Dispatching giving out the description as an African-American male is something I have never understood. What a total screw up on their part!

Soze found out about a hidden tunnel in the park just north of Jackson, so it is possible Zodiac may have known about it and hid out there for a bit.
avatar
ophion1031

Posts : 3750
Join date : 2015-06-01
Location : Albuquerque

http://www.ophion1031.com

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by Don Pseuym on February 2nd 2017, 7:00 am

Surfing the net  on the Presideo  heights area years ago I found a sf article about a murder at the U drives @  cherry,maple  st's  & jackson
It was a place hookers used and cabs parked there too it said  a  nite  jan 68 a couple parked at one of them was attacked and the man shot and died ,cops accussed she set him up she strongly denied ... I keep trying to find that article again ... someone here would find it better/quicker than I , this was a newspaper article about Presideo heights residents wanting more done by police ,not anything relating to Zodiac.
seems like z may have been there at some time previous to stines killing

And at a drive IN theater (63rd st)  here in 74 ? people used to park up on a road, on  a hill to watch the movies for free and when it sold out . a couple parked there , was shot by a masked man and killed . the guy just walked up and shot him in the drivers seat .
it was in the  K C Star
we did the same  around this time to try to (spring 75 )  see Cybill Shepard neked in The Last Picture Show,
+ not get busted for the beer we had.  
a kid in the back seat of my car see's this guy, hooded walking up the slope towards us ,from the side and back  with what looked like a gun , this was what he had done before the same spot ,other occupants of cars saw it to then and started honking, he ran back into the woods   this guy looked 40? ,not a young guy.
every other car drove off  , my car used to be impossible to restart until it cooled a bit after shutting off ...

Don Pseuym

Posts : 592
Join date : 2015-08-22
Location : overland park KS

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by ophion1031 on February 4th 2017, 9:01 pm

I'm going to see if I can find more info and post about any of those murders I can find. I think it would be cool to research them just in case there are any clews.
avatar
ophion1031

Posts : 3750
Join date : 2015-06-01
Location : Albuquerque

http://www.ophion1031.com

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by Sick E. Von Brutal on February 5th 2017, 12:16 am

ophion1031 wrote:I always figured that those kids didn't get as good a look at the killer as most people would think - it was dark and they were not all that close, but I also thought Fouke and/or Zelms may not have gotten as good a look as people thought as well. But they must have, now knowing they were a lot closer that I thought.

Dispatching giving out the description as an African-American male is something I have never understood. What a total screw up on their part!

Soze found out about a hidden tunnel in the park just north of Jackson, so it is possible Zodiac may have known about it and hid out there for a bit.

wait a minute..............

what hidden tunnel? that sounds familiar to me but I cant remember why.
avatar
Sick E. Von Brutal

Posts : 721
Join date : 2016-04-09
Age : 34

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by sandy betts on February 19th 2017, 9:22 am

I think that if Zodiac hid in a tunnel, the dogs would have found him and he wouldn't be able to see everything that he saw. I wish I could take you to that apt facing the playground. It was the perfect place for Zodiac to see what he described. In his letter of course he couldn't say that he was hiding in a home, he had to say he was a few blocks away in the park. The dogs would have found him in the park if he was there.It is obvious to me that he told Stine to take him to Maple, then went one more block to Cherry. But he really wanted to be closer to Maple, because he was seen there.He was a master at misdirection and disguise.

sandy betts

Posts : 359
Join date : 2016-03-22

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by Sick E. Von Brutal on February 19th 2017, 9:30 pm

yeah the idea of zodiac hiding in a tunnel is probably pretty far off but could be true I guess. that tunnel was supposedly at the far east end of the park and close to the home of Xenophon Anthony. I don't think he could have seen the things described in the letter from that end of the park
avatar
Sick E. Von Brutal

Posts : 721
Join date : 2016-04-09
Age : 34

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by sandy betts on February 20th 2017, 11:58 am

This past Oct 11th I and our Z group walked to the home that Xenophon Anthony had in 1969. It is one heck of a walk, so much so that if he were Zodiac and walked back to his home right after the shooting, he would have been spotted by the officers for sure.
Have I missed seeing a picture of Mr. Anthony on this site ? It would be interesting to see what he looked like, if he actually looked anything like Zodiac.

sandy betts

Posts : 359
Join date : 2016-03-22

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by sandy betts on February 20th 2017, 12:28 pm

I did find his picture on this site, it is pretty close to the SF composite minus the glasses. He has the widows peak and high cheek bones. His hair style could be mistaken for a crew cut. He is not the person I have as Zodiac. My suspects face is more round, like the Lake B composite. My RH suspect looks more like a combination of the SFPD composite and Paul Stine.
Great job WC getting his name!

sandy betts

Posts : 359
Join date : 2016-03-22

Back to top Go down

Re: A very similar attack 11 days prior

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum