Where did Z go after the murder?

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Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by ophion1031 on May 23rd 2016, 10:20 pm

In the letter, he states that he hid in the park, but I think I would probably say the same thing if I went into someone's home to hide out. I'm not saying that is what he did, but it is what I believe.

So the address that Z walked up to was 3712 Jackson (I think), although I don't believe he entered that home. I think he probably noticed that someone saw him and acted like he lived there so he walked up to the house. I believe that he waited until the coast was clear and then made his way to the home of Kjell Qvale to hide out until morning. I'm gonna see if I can find out who lived at 3712 Jackson, but I'm sure that has been posted and discussed on other sites, and I'm sure whoever lived there was checked into.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by ophion1031 on May 23rd 2016, 10:43 pm

Qvale lived at 3636 Jackson, a block west of 3712. 3712 is listed for Fred W. Bloch. Ahh that's right, I researched him not all that long ago. I will see if I can find where I posted info on him. I remember he was pretty old in 1969, but I think he had a job that grabbed my attention. I want to say it had something to do with paper and/or printing or something. A job that makes me wonder how he afforded to live in that neighborhood. It's funny, almost every single person I have researched from the area of Washington and Cherry has been interesting. A lot of prestigious people lived there.

I think I'm gonna start researching everyone who lived within a few blocks of Washington and Cherry.

I will get names of people on Washington, Cherry and Maple at a later time, but for now here are listings on Jackson.....





Last edited by ophion1031 on May 24th 2016, 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by ophion1031 on May 23rd 2016, 11:19 pm

Another idea... there were a couple vacant houses and quite a few vacant apartments in the area. If Z or someone he was friends with worked in real estate and/or managed one of the apartment buildings, well there is a good place to hide out!

I noticed quite a while back that in the directory it had William Thoresen as being an apartment manager for an apartment building on Larkin St.

It says he lived in apartment 5. Now, that raises some questions for me. What would a millionaire need an apartment for when he owns a mansion? The apartment was about 4 or 5 blocks east of his mansion and a few blocks from Mason and Geary. I bet he did all kinds of crazy shit in this apartment. But him being listed as apartment manager is interesting. Or maybe he just lied and wasn't actually the manager. I do remember an FBI file on him listing his occupation as something he was not. I want to say writer, but I don't recall exactly.

Anyways, this area of San Francisco has a ton of small apartments buildings, lofts, duplexes etc.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by JohnFester on May 24th 2016, 1:34 am

I agree that if he did not hide in the park then mentioning it in the letter was a smart move. Police probably never even suspected he went into a home other than the home he was spotted walking up to but I'm sure they checked that out.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by JohnFester on May 24th 2016, 1:35 am

I never knew Thoresen kept an apartment. Don't think that was ever mentioned before. Are you sure there wasn't another William Thoresen in SF? Odds are probably against that given the location of the Larkin St apartment though/.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by ophion1031 on June 4th 2016, 10:13 pm

JohnFester wrote:I never knew Thoresen kept an apartment. Don't think that was ever mentioned before. Are you sure there wasn't another William Thoresen in SF? Odds are probably against that given the location of the Larkin St apartment though/.

If he did keep an apartment, his wife probably never knew about it as it was not mentioned in her book. Or maybe she failed to mention it because he used it to take women there and sleep with them? I kinda doubt it since it was published in the directory, but I have no idea. I'd imagine it was him and not another William Thoresen. He is the only one I can find a record of living in S.F.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by Rocketman on June 5th 2016, 7:43 pm

For the longest time I just thought he hid in the park as stated but I now think he did hide in someone's house, maybe Mr. X.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by Matthew Mayer on June 12th 2016, 8:02 pm

So the home of Fred Bloch is where he walked up to but nobody saw him go in, is that correct? What do we know about this Bloch guy?



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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by ophion1031 on June 22nd 2016, 9:00 pm

Matthew Mayer wrote:So the home of Fred Bloch is where he walked up to but nobody saw him go in, is that correct? What do we know about this Bloch guy?



-Matthew

I believe that officer Fouke stated that he spotted the man walking up to 3712 Jackson, and then he drove off because they hadn't gotten the radio message that the killer was white. So Zodiac probably walked up towards the house and hid out until the coast was clear, at which point he made his way to wherever his destination was. There was a vacant house near Qvale's house. Maybe he hid out there until morning. Maybe he hid at Qvale's until morning.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by WelshChappie on September 27th 2016, 4:53 pm

ophion1031 wrote:In the letter, he states that he hid in the park, but I think I would probably say the same thing if I went into someone's home to hide out. I'm not saying that is what he did, but it is what I believe.

So the address that Z walked up to was 3712 Jackson (I think), although I don't believe he entered that home. I think he probably noticed that someone saw him and acted like he lived there so he walked up to the house. I believe that he waited until the coast was clear and then made his way to the home of Kjell Qvale to hide out until morning. I'm gonna see if I can find out who lived at 3712 Jackson, but I'm sure that has been posted and discussed on other sites, and I'm sure whoever lived there was checked into.



He did suggest He went to the Park. In Fact Chad, He repeatedly offered us the readers this suggestion over and over.

Hey Blue Pig, I was in the Park...
SFPD could have caught Me if they had searched the Park properly.
And I disappeared into the Park...

Are just three examples of many. He even adds the park reference where it is not needed nor serves a purpose when He declared:

"As I was walking down the hill to the Park this cop car pulled up. . ."

There is absolutely no need to add this reference here in the above statement. I would expect He simply declare "As I was walking down the hill this cop car pulled up. . ." because He has told us previous to this statement where He was going.

For Me Zodiac is trying to sell the reader this idea far too much and excessively to the point He's overselling it and when people do this act of overselling, they are, more often than not, doing it to deceive.

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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by ophion1031 on September 27th 2016, 11:19 pm

My opinion is that he wanted people to really focus on that... that he hid in the park. Why? Because it was probably not true. And back then would anyone other than the police even think to question that? The public probably didn't give it a second thought. Maybe police didn't either. Like you said, he was overselling it. Another reason to think he hid out in someone's home until morning and oversold the park thing so that nobody would even think about the possibility of someone from the neighborhood hiding a murderer in their home.

IF Mr. X did in fact hide the murderer, I wonder if he made the killer mention the park so many times to make sure people were focused on the fact that Zodiac did indeed hide in the park. Sounds like a good play.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by WelshChappie on September 28th 2016, 2:25 am

Well it's not just His overselling of the Park idea, but for Me it also maes little sense to head there after the murder. The question is.....Why? What's the great plan then, Zodiac kill Paul then dash off to the park and wait to be surrounded by Police boxing Him in? That's just absurd in My opinion. 

 Did Zodiac dash through the Maple wall entrance, run into the park and take up residence on the parks sea-saw hoping David Toschi would dash there to sit on the other side to play with Zodiac? 

  "Hey Blue Pig, I was in the Park on the Sea-Saw! You were using fire trucks to mask the sirens of your prowling pig cars. 

 Maybe that was also Foukes secret Motivation to run away to the Julius Kahn Park:

"We turned around to get to the Presidio and My reasoning on that was because Turning down Maple would lead directly into the Presidio which had a lot of Sea-Saw potential! I went down looking for the sea-saw on West Pacific Avenue. Nothing was observed."

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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by Don Pseuym on September 28th 2016, 9:44 am

ophion1031 wrote:My opinion is that he wanted people to really focus on that... that he hid in the park. Why? Because it was probably not true. And back then would anyone other than the police even think to question that? The public probably didn't give it a second thought. Maybe police didn't either. Like you said, he was overselling it. Another reason to think he hid out in someone's home until morning and oversold the park thing so that nobody would even think about the possibility of someone from the neighborhood hiding a murderer in their home.

IF Mr. X did in fact hide the murderer, I wonder if he made the killer mention the park so many times to make sure people were focused on the fact that Zodiac did indeed hide in the park. Sounds like a good play.

Or back to the Presideo army base , they have transient quarters no doubt . Z layed over there for a day or two and leaving in the morning @ 0600 for vietnam or somewhere ?

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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by Rocketman on September 28th 2016, 4:49 pm

Oph, what about all of the empty apartments in the area? I remember discussing that before. Don, that is an interesting theory.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by ophion1031 on September 28th 2016, 9:25 pm

The empty apartments was just an idea I was throwing out there. Long shot for sure... I like the idea that Z hid at Qvale's house much better.

Hmmm, very possible, Don. Is there a way to check any sort of records like that?

Alex, I agree. Why hide somewhere out in the open with dogs sniffing around and the area flooded with cops? I can see going through the park to escape because at that time of night it was probably empty and it was dark so he could have easily made it through the park.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by WelshChappie on October 1st 2016, 9:25 am

Don Pseuym wrote:
ophion1031 wrote:My opinion is that he wanted people to really focus on that... that he hid in the park. Why? Because it was probably not true. And back then would anyone other than the police even think to question that? The public probably didn't give it a second thought. Maybe police didn't either. Like you said, he was overselling it. Another reason to think he hid out in someone's home until morning and oversold the park thing so that nobody would even think about the possibility of someone from the neighborhood hiding a murderer in their home.

IF Mr. X did in fact hide the murderer, I wonder if he made the killer mention the park so many times to make sure people were focused on the fact that Zodiac did indeed hide in the park. Sounds like a good play.

Or back to the Presideo army base , they have transient quarters no doubt . Z layed over  there for a day or two and leaving in the morning @ 0600  for vietnam or somewhere ?

Well the Base itself, once all the police activity began, came out to help search the expansive grounds. Literally a platoon of Soldiers searching with SFPD in numbers searching that area. For Zodiac, or anyone else, to get through from West Pacific Avenue to The Presidio Army Base He'd have to avoid cops from the rear & Soldiers heading His Way. 

 This type of thing is where the Myth of A Most Worthy Advisory & Intelligent Criminal in Zodiac comes from.  All the general person with a passing interest know is 'Zodiac Killer = Never caught' so must be something special. If you asked them "Did you know, or have you ever read, that this offender walked straight into the beams of two patrol cops and their headlights thus presenting Himself for arrest" I would think over 80% would reply "No."

 What let Him remain at large is His extremely brilliant bit of luck and not His own Judgement.

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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by Don Pseuym on October 1st 2016, 3:05 pm

Do you have confirmation as to the time it was under lockdown WC ? if 3 min.s is correct in the first police responding to the scene it must have been near 10 minutes for a organized search to start onbase . Saturday being a day that soldiers would get a pass for many of them could be out and about . the Airforce had flights all over the country to the west coast and Cal. every day then , but the Presideo to my knowledge doe not have such a runway
10 min. would be enough time for a fit person to get near the barracks ...no ?
sure going to where more authority is not the best plan but if he has rehearst it it could be a air tight alibi too .

I doubt it ophion , us anyway, about the records of who was at the Presideo base
the Cool hand Luke  method on taking out a dog or two could have been done

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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by WelshChappie on October 2nd 2016, 1:08 am

No Idea when the base Locked Down etc, I just know that when the base becamse aware of a large police presence and what they were there for, a number of the personal on base came out and helped police searching the Grounds.

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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by Richard Grinell on October 2nd 2016, 3:52 am

When the police congregated and entered the park, they grouped two sets of dogs with handlers from two entry points. The first was by the first turnout on Arguello Boulevard, where heavy tree coverage is apparent on the western edge of the park. The second group congregated by the Presidio entrance by Julius Khan playground. Zodiac described this in his letter "there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart then the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west." These two points are 10 minutes apart walking and the location of these two groups were not discussed in the newspapers, so we know Zodiac did not leave immediately by vehicle, and was around until at least 10.10 pm to view the unfolding search, although it doesn't categorically tell us whether he was in the park or viewing from a nearby residence. But the exit strategy in a vehicle somewhere by the Jackson/Maple intersection is negated.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by Rocketman on October 2nd 2016, 8:18 pm

Richard Grinell wrote:When the police congregated and entered the park, they grouped two sets of dogs with handlers from two entry points. The first was by the first turnout on Arguello Boulevard, where heavy tree coverage is apparent on the western edge of the park. The second group congregated by the Presidio entrance by Julius Khan playground. Zodiac described this in his letter "there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart then the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west." These two points are 10 minutes apart walking and the location of these two groups were not discussed in the newspapers, so we know Zodiac did not leave immediately by vehicle, and was around until at least 10.10 pm to view the unfolding search, although it doesn't categorically tell us whether he was in the park or viewing from a nearby residence. But the exit strategy in a vehicle somewhere by the Jackson/Maple intersection is negated.    

If he was telling the truth the he was still in the area observing or had someone else observing for him. That doesn't mean he was in the park by any means but it means he or an 'accomplice' were monitoring the police actions. And Z had a pretty good head start on the police due to the error in the killer's description.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by WelshChappie on October 8th 2016, 3:46 pm

Well there have been those who have, maybe not directly, but certainly indirectly hinted at Zodiac being able to observe the cops because He was One. Many have pointed to His use of Cop Jargon in some of His Letters etc and I certainly don't think the theory is over the top or unrealistic with or without Z's written statements appearing to be like that of police talk. 

 This point I am about to make could be accurate or, I acknowledge, can be a fantastic example of how to read into something too much. That example is where Zodiac declares:


 "I look like the description passed out only when I do My thing..."

The phrase or use of the wording "description passed out" is stand outish to Me in that the people who see it posted will see it up on lamp posts, shop windows and on Police Billboards etc. The only people who I would expect to use the terminology of 'Description passed out' is the very people who have passed it out to various people and places. Those people are going to be Law Enforcement themselves.

 However, as said, this, I am the first to acknowledge, is probably just reading too much into The Writers choice of phraseology.

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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by ophion1031 on October 9th 2016, 2:15 am

If Z actually WAS a cop... well, I guess that could explain how dispatch put out the description as a black guy. Maybe the dispatch person on duty was friends with the killer and bought his/her friend a few extra minutes.

I never really put any thought into the "description passed out" thing, but you make a very good point. Saying that could actually be a big clue. Maybe not, but it is weird that the letter said it in those words. I always overlooked that for whatever reason.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by WelshChappie on October 9th 2016, 8:24 am

ophion1031 wrote:If Z actually WAS a cop... well, I guess that could explain how dispatch put out the description as a black guy. Maybe the dispatch person on duty was friends with the killer and bought his/her friend a few extra minutes.

I never really put any thought into the "description passed out" thing, but you make a very good point. Saying that could actually be a big clue. Maybe not, but it is weird that the letter said it in those words. I always overlooked that for whatever reason.

 
 Dispatcher takes call and witness description at lets say, 9:53 & 10 seconds.... Fast Forward then way way way into the future & at 9:53pm and 30 seconds, Yes, a full & complete 20 seconds later, The same Delightfully Dim Dispatcher is alerting Patrol Radio Cars BOLO's for "SUBJECT IS A BLACK MALE, THAT'S BLACK MALE, I SAY AGAIN, NEGRO MALE ADULT OF A POSSIBLE AFRICAN AMERICAN ANCESTRY! BLACK MALE, BLACK MALE, ALL DONE THEN AND SELLING YOU A BMA OF BULL SHIT.....*GABBLE COME'S DOWN - BANG!* SOLD TO THE GENTLEMAN THERE REPRESENTING THE PUBLIC. 

 Ring the San Francisco PD  and ask their Public Relations Officer: "Good Morning Sir.Now, could you please confirm whether Your Dpt. recruits from the University of Total Idiot? 

 I can picture it, A dispatcher who takes the witness call turning to radio it to Cars on the street and spills His coffee into His Groin. The burning pain causes Him to jolt up from the seat, thus K.Oing His monitor screen with a left swipe of the arm. His pain immense & intolerable... There's a job to be done. And so, laying down under the cold drinking water dispenser pouring onto His crotch area, He agonizingly issues: All Units, All Units, please Be Advised.... My Crotch is f**k**g on fire! Anyhow...  All Units be advised your suspect will be A White African American, that A White African American Male....I think. Described as being between the age of fifteen and Eighty-Five. Horn Rimmed Glasses on His White Face with Black skin..... Described as having light brown to a blondish type hair with a tint of red in it that was most certainly going grey around the rear!  Suspect last observed departing Cab with a truffle shuffle Gait on Merry Cherry Stwwweet....Over"

 So we are looking for a suspect that, if I may compose My own Wanted Poster Composite, is a black man with blondish hair, red tint and graying at rear. Stumbling & limping, shuffling & Lurching Gait that makes an already freakish looking black male who has blonde and red hair except where He's going Grey, as if that wasn't attention grabbing enough, the poor sole also has an apparent inability to walk like a normal person! 

 Well I mean, I sympathize now and I understand why He ram around shooting the shit out of everybody. If I was an Aferican American White Male with blonde, red, light brown and grey hair with no ability to walk anywhere near normal, I think I would be off on Homicidal sprees too! 

 My sympathies Mr Zodiac, I'm sorry you were bullied for being the first White Man with 99.9% African American DNA, a rainbow or 'Assortment' of hair colors and thick geeky specs and just when it an't get any worse. . . enter the Truffle Shuffle Gait!

 Sorry but I am too emotional to type anymore. I'm so sorry You were overlooked when God handed out Locomotive Gait's & Hair colors.

I may have to apologize to D. Fouke for His non detaining of this individual. I wouldn't get out of My Vehicle either if I saw 'It' Shuffling toward Me. No wonder your statement was "step on the gas..." you were probably frightened to F'ing death!  "ARGGGHH....DON! DON LOOK! LOOK! THERE, ON THE SIDEWALK!  WHAT THE FOUKE IS THAT!! STEP ON IT FOUKE, SPEED UP IMMEDIATELY, GET AWAY FROM THAT THING! 

 I should imagine they were relieved seeing Pelissetti coming down Jackson as Backup, Armond who is in the process of tip-toeing down Jackson trying not to get His head blown off.. .



         Armond observed "numerous alcoves and parked cars" for a would be armed man to conceal Himself in or behind and was concerned His head was about to be in the way of a speeding Bullet  issued by the armed Man who's been a naughty boy, didn't pay for a Taxi that He should Have!  

   God Help a resident opening their alcove clad front door and shouting to see what's happening. Armond would pump 6 rounds in their direction. Vehicle backfires in close proximity, Pelissetti throw Himself over hood of stationary car only emerging to neutralize the Immediate threat of, well, This Criminal Chevy Impala 25 yards away!


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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by ophion1031 on October 13th 2016, 2:32 am

HAHAHAHA I love Police Academy!!

I am still just baffled how they could have put out the APB on a negro. How the hell do you make a mistake like that? I sure hope someone was fired for the error.
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Re: Where did Z go after the murder?

Post by WelshChappie on October 13th 2016, 2:54 am

ophion1031 wrote:HAHAHAHA I love Police Academy!!

I am still just baffled how they could have put out the APB on a negro. How the hell do you make a mistake like that? I sure hope someone was fired for the error.

 No nobody was fired for this mistake because nobody ever made it. It's a cover story by SFPD they were forced into coming up with after Zodiac wrote "PS: 2 cops pulled a goof" and described How they saw Him and were literally 5 to 10 foot away from Him and let Him go.  Well Imagine the backlash from the public and the Commissioner for Crime  in California this is going to arrive at SFPD's door now!  What are they going to do?  They need to come up with a justifiable reason and/or excuse as to why the did not arrest Him. 

Lots of fingernail biting, thinking of acceptable reasons....Ummmmmm,uhhhhhhh, hmmmm, AH-HA! GOT IT!

 We will say that We allowed the White Male we saw to walk off Jackson street and into legend because, and this is a good one which will take the heat off us, We'll say we got given an initial error of BMA Suspect,  rather than the correct WMA.

 Nobody said that some dispatcher had made an error in their broadcast, not in 4 week after the crime happens. It's on;y when Zodiac rubs the face right in their own incompetence and reveals that they actually called over to Him, and now, as if By Magic.......   Enter the Klu Klux Klan Dispatcher!

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