Celebrity Cypher

Alex, drop that cigarette! Shit, now I want one... smoke break time!

"Solved = I believe"... exactly! No matter how convinced someone is that they are right, and there is absolutely nothing with that, it is better to not state things as fact but rather as an opinion. Another example is Gary Stewart in his book when he starts off saying is is possible that his biological father was Zodiac but then halfway through the book he starts saying shit like "Earl Van Best Jr. crept up to Darlene Ferrin's car and started shooting." That is not an exact quote, but something similar to things he says in his book. I don't like that. Stewart can't prove 100% without a doubt that his father was Zodiac, and I think his evidence is weak anyways.

I love reading new theories/ideas, especially if they are "outside the box" type of things, but even those turn me off to the theory if the person is stating opinion as fact. I hope nobody leaves the site because of this. There really are some great theories and great discussions going on here and I always want to learn more about what people are thinking and why the feel a certain way about a topic/subject. If this case is ever solved, I think it will probably take a team of people working together rather than one person doing it themselves. That was the goal of this website. Not necessarily to solve the case, but to get people to work together and have fun doing so. Some ideas and theories are not as welcome at other sites, but that was one thing we wanted to do here was to look at the "off the wall ideas" because they might just lead somewhere.

I hope that last post makes sense... I wrote a little at a time in between calls at work.

Well Bob Graysmith wrote then had published 'Zodiac' A book about the case before following that up with a sequel 'Zodiac Unmasked' in which He, like many others,  lets His ego off it's lead to run free and His ego, not His Intellect or Conscious Mind which would have foreseen the potential disaster to His books and credibility if He happened to be wrong, His Ego overruled His rational mind and informed Him that it's as close to a certainty as Certain can be that His Suspect, Arthur Leigh Allen, Was Zodiac. At time of Graysmith going to print, Allen was alive so Graysmith gives Allen an Alias of Bob Hall Star in the book Zodiac.

Then, how dare they!! They did it deliberately!! They only went and deliberately discovered Genetic Fingerprinting, or 'DNA!' Bastards! Conspiracy!! Conspiracy against the Cartoonists!

Graysmith has since come out with the most fictional crap claiming it to be known fact that I wouldn't be surprised if He one day went on MSNBC News and made another load of absolute fictional claims as a fact, only this time saying:

"DNA Profiling? Unique Forensic Fingerprint scientifically tested and proven to be 99.9999% accurate when a profile is matched to a person in the system? All Lies! Propaganda and Disinformation to discredit Me and My second Book because There is a Conspiracy to cover up the guilt of Allen in these Zodiac crimes. There is no such thing as DNA but Science is claiming there is to cover up the guilt of Suspect Allen in The Zodiac Crimes. They have invented DNA to falsely claim Allen is innocent in a Worldwide Conspiracy against Chronicle Cartoonists, simple fact!"

In reality: The Authors Theoretical Propositions, circumstantial linkages, and many 'True statements of fact' (Also known as 'Lying made up Fiction' to normal people) He made have collapse under their own non-basis. Given the Authors ultimate end conclusion & basic entire 2nd book being a collection of bull-shit incortectness,  I am thinking now of holding a Memorial for the number of poor trees who had to die via chainsaw just to have the paper used for the First ever Book listed in a library under the 'NON FICTION' Classification/Section that is complete fiction cover to cover!


Like the great Minds of Ancient Civilizations such as Egypt and Nine Dynasties of Royal Rule.

"The Flat Earth We live on is The Center of Universe!"

Sorry Pharaoh Thutmose II, Great Warrior King. . . . Fraid Not!

Earth not even Center of our own Galaxy, let alone the Universe itself for which is contained within Hundreds of Billions of Galaxies! PS: The Planet is a Sphere and is rotating, the Sun is the Body that remains Static.

Sorry,  Throw Your ancient 'Knowledge' into the Valley of the Bins!

So Welsh Chappie did you have anything to say about the information I found in the Celebrity Cipher?

Seems pretty obvious from the multiple stabs that the Zodiac makes across a wide range of targets (police, media, SLA, Black Panthers, kids, couples, girls, airliners, and now entertainers) that we dont actually have a serial killer do we?

We have an operation that is targeting the masses and its clear that its not just the "Psycho Killer" that we should be looking for.

Eldorado wrote:So Welsh Chappie did you have anything to say about the information I found in the Celebrity Cipher?

Seems pretty obvious from the multiple stabs that the Zodiac makes across a wide range of targets (police, media, SLA, Black Panthers, kids, couples, girls, airliners, and now entertainers) that we dont actually have a serial killer do we?

We have an operation that is targeting the masses and its clear that its not just the "Psycho Killer" that we should be looking for.

Speaking of SLA, I would love to hear your thoughts on the SLA letter (there is a thread for it) if you wouldn't mind.

Sorry Eldorado, I had missed your response/question here.

So, you say:

"Seems pretty obvious from the multiple stabs that the Zodiac makes across a wide range of targets (police, media, SLA, Black Panthers, kids, couples, girls, airliners, and now entertainers) that we dont actually have a serial killer do we?"

Umm, I wouldn't say that, no. I wouldn't say because the letters seem to talk about different people, groups and things in general that this points to anything of significance. I certainly wouldn't say 'Its pretty obvious' We don't have a serial Killer because the author speaks of different topics.

I usually find that if a person is engaged in committing serial Homicide, they don't tend to be the most happy person in the World and don't like much either, especially other people.

If your asking Me do I think that, based on the letters, there's more than one killer at work here I would have to say 'No'. I see no evidence of this in the letters, and in fact, considering handwriting experts at the time confirmed the letters were written by the same individual each time, this would for suggest the author is not simply a hoaxer who sits around waiting for a homicide to happen so He can get His pen and legal paper pad out to pretend "I did it. Me, the Zodiac! My artwork that, guilty as charged!"

Do forgive Me for the assumption I am about to make which, if wrong, I am sure you'll tell me as such but, You sound like you have similar beliefs to that of Tom Horan, who believes these murders were not connected at all, and the reason they were linked is because someone wrote the letters claiming, falsely Horan states, responsibility as Serial Nut 'Zodiac'.

Horan has said that the author essentially guessed details of certain Z attributed crimes, got the details wrong in other cases, and when its put to Him that the final crime was proceeded by a letter that contained blood soaked shirt pieces, Horan says that these were taken from Stines corpse by someone professional with access to bodies of evidence and passed on to the hoaxer to write his latest letter of responsibility. Horan suggests that one or two members of Law Enforcement were behind the letters and they did it as a hoax and when Horan was asked the very logical question of "Why, why would they do that?" Horan replied "I don't know. I think it started out as a joke, but it went too far."

To Me, that is absolutely absurd. If anyone is going to say Law Enforcement, or members thereof, are behind the letters, then You'd probably do well to have strong grounds to point to to show why You make such an allegation. This isn't a little insignificant thing! This is a crime, perverting the course of Justice by impeding a police investigation.

This very scenario happened in the Yorkshire Ripper investigation. A tape was sent to police beginning: "I'm Jack. I see You are still having no luck with catching Me. I recon your boys are letting You down George...." and the man went on claiming to be the ripper. The Voice on the tape was of a man who clearly had a wearside accent. This tape and it's claimant was taken to be authentic by Lead Investigator, George Oldfield. Oldfield was so convinced that this was their man on that tape that He began eliminating suspects based on the way they spoke ie, eliminating those who did not have the required accent. As such, the spotlight was off anyone who didn't have a Wearside accent, including a man called Peter Sutcliffe. Sutcliffe, who sported A Bradford/Leeds area accent, was questioned Twice by police who, the higher up's of the investigation determined, could be discounted as a suspect based on His accent.

The Actual Hoaxer was only fairly recently found after DNA became mainstream.  Google 'Ripper Hoaxer John Humble' or click the following link, in which it states:  

"Some 25 years after the event, a fragment from one of Humble's envelopes was traced to him through DNA, and in 2006 Humble was sentenced to eight years in prison for perverting the course of justice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wearside_Jack

I heard one radio interview Horan gave where He was asked about other amateurs who disagree with His theory and Horan said: "Yes, Tom Voigt, Steve (Morf), Michael Kelleher, these people will say I am wrong but none of them will debate Me on this subject, believe Me i have asked or challenged all of them and they all refuse and it's because hey know they cannot disprove my theory and argument."

Well, it's not up to Kelleger, Morf, Me or anyone else to disprove your claim, but rather, up to He who alleges to prove His allegation and charges are true. The Latin Legal Maxim demands: 'The Burden of Proof lay with He who alleges', and Horan knows this.  He is an intelligent man.

I personally would debate Him in a heartbeat on any public forum/platform He wanted to. You can't tell Me  'Here is my extraordinary claim without any basic, let alone extraordinary, evidence to support it' and accusing the authorities of a giant hoax in writing these letters is a big claim to make and so when asked "What was their Motive to do this?" it doesn't help your credibility to reply with: "Ummm, I don't know. They probably started out writing the letters as A Joke."

Yes, because that is what the District Attorney would find hilarious. I don't think the Judge would see the funny side much either as He sentenced them for Conspiracy to pervert the course of Justice.

Just incase anyone not familiar with the Ripper Hoax and How Forensic Science eventually caught up with, and then outed,  John Humble then here's the documentary about 'Britain's biggest and most notorious Hoaxer'

 

Sutcliffe at His trial claimed the voice of God had spoke to Him through a Graveside Headstone and Ordered Him to remove Prostitutes from the City streets. Obviously Sutcliffe was trying the insanity defense to avoid being sentenced to Life prison in favor of being sentenced to an indefinite term in a Maximum Security Mental Health Hospital where He could have a realistic possibility of one day being released. The ploy failed at first and He was sent to Prison. After being there a few years, His 'Insanity' claims were believed, and He was transferred to Britain's most notorious Mental Health Hospital, Broadmoor.

However, I suspect that Peter lived to regret this transfer. While being in Broadmoor meant far more freedom inside the facility to roam around and come and go as one pleases within its walls because Broadmoor is not legally speaking, A prison. At face value, this seems to be the far more easier and desired place to be instead of Prison. Mr Sutcliffe had not, however, factored in all the potential downfalls of a mental Health facility, one that confines those that are deemed 'Criminally Insane'.

The No.1 hazard overlooked by Mr Sutcliffe was something called 'Ronnie Kray', one half of the twin brothers (With the other beng Reg Kray) who ran Britain's Underworld back in the Sixties. Now, unfortunately for Peter, unlike Himself, Ronnie Kray was truly, in every sense of the word, A Psychopath. Ronnie once stabbed His Twin brother Reggie through the hand with a fork after Reggie had attempted to pick some food off of Ronnies Plate!

Below: Twins Ronnie (Right) and Reggie Kray.




Now if Ronnie were to attack or give the order for another to attack, Sutcliffe, then you may think the gangster would do so after taking offence that He attacked and killed defenseless Women. This was not the case here. Sutcliffes crime was worse than that! He had strolled past Ronnie Kray, who was sat talking on a visit with a friend, when Sutcliffe accidentally bumped the back of the chair Ron was sat in. Then if that wasn't bad enough, He refused to apologise when Ron demanded He say sorry at once!

Staff one day moved Ron to another wing of the Hospital saying they have heard whispers Ron was imminently going to attack another patient who they believed was Sutcliffe. Two days after transfer where Ron could no longer physically get to Sutcliffe Himself, He gave the order to another inmate/patient to 'Mark Him, mark Him good so that every time that prick looks in a mirror He will see My face!" The result? See Below. . .

Bet He wishes He has said Sorry to the Psychopathic Notorious Gangland boss!

The best comment that ronnie issued was in response to the Crown Prosecution Service and it's Prosecutor in Court. The Defense Solicitor told His client Twins that He cannot stress strongly enough that they should not take the stand in their own defense. Reg being the sane twin took His Lawyers advice and stayed off the stand. Ronnie however was going to be the star attraction and center of attention and told His Solicitor to shove His legal advise as He knew Best!

Prosecutor: "Isn't it a fact Ronald that You, along with your Brother Reginald, were leaders of an organized crime gang that terrorized East London and ruled by threat, intimidation and violence?"

Ronnie: "Well that May or May not be the case, but Your just a bit fat slob!"

Anyway, back to the Subject/Topic of the thread and Eldorado's question/points.

I certainly am not against the 'Multiple Offender' theory, I think there is more than sufficient grounds to make that argument. But if I am not mistaken, Your suggesting that there are different attackers responsible for the four confirmed Zodiac attacks by Four totally different and independent individuals who were not in anyway at all linked to, or even knew of, each of the other attacks?

In a nut shell, they were not crimes that were linked at all but separate crimes by separate people who all got linked together because of a series of Hoax Letters claiming that all Four attacks were by one Serial Killer calling Himself Zodiac who also somehow had access to evidence that allowed Him to describe a crime scene accurately and also access to Victims after their deaths where He tore the deceased individuals garments up thus enabling Him and His claims to seem more authentic and give the 'Zodiac serial killer' who didn't really exist more credibility and substance to the idea that He did?

I just can't, on any level, believe this theory is plausible. You'd have to have nut cases running around The Bay area killing couples independant of each other but their MO similar while a rouge Cop, or band of rouge cops, maybe some evidence tech with access to crime scene photo's even is writing letters to claim that this series of attacks are all linked and His motivation for doing so is He's bored and thought it would be a good joke to pull on His fellow Professionals even going as far as to abuse a corpse by taking something off the body of the deceased just so He could give His joke of a hoax a bit more credibility?

And I don't know, but can I assume that the Hoaxing Letter author obviously didn't attack or kill anyone, including Cecelia at Lake Berryessa and He obviously did not know the real person who did stab Her either but yet, He still somehow manages to be on the very scene to scribble a message on Hartnells door which is, in my personal opinion and the opinions of questioned document examiners, written by the same hand as that of the Zodiac Letters. There's no connection at all between the Real Killers and Letter writer both are completely independant of the other and that is obvious except obviously that there is a connection between the two here at Lake B, confirmed by Handwriting analysis experts who's opinions are regularly given in, and accepted by, Juries and Judges in Courtrooms.

I'm sorry, but this idea at least to Me personally, is absurd. I am absolutely open to the idea that the writer of the letters was not the killer, nor was their one single killer but several, but if this is the case, the killer/killers and the man writing the letters would do so not independent of, but rather in a conspiracy with, the other. I've heard the theory of Hal Snook being involved and after looking at the striking similarities between His printing and Zodiacs, along with His access to Crime Labs and evidence, I wouldn't rule this theory out either but with Hal and the killer/killers in a conspiracy.

If someone puts the theory to Me of Hal Writing the letters and because of His job had access to Labs, Evidence and even the Morgue which is how He got Stines Shirt pieces then He'd simply have to have motive and reason to be doing that such as, He and the killer in an agreed conspiracy. To say Hal is writing the letters and stealing things to use as proof that there is a Zodiac and He as a highly ranked Law Offcer is doing this because He''s bored and there is no motive nor reason why because He doesn't have any real connection to the killers so is not motivated to assist the real people responsible but He is doing it for reasons He Himself doesn't know? Seriously?

A Grudge! That's it! He detests Law Enforcement! Can't stand Them Blue Meanie Pigs. . . Of which He himself is one?? A City Pig with a real hatred for, ermmm, city pigs? O....K and Hmmm!

The Four 'Confirmed' Zodiac Crimes are Confirmation of nothing because the Four Crimes are separate and independent of each other with Four different and independent people/peoples responsible along with a person writing the letters who is also independent from the four already independent criminals responsible and the independent writer, unlike the independent criminals responsible for the four independent attacks, has no motive to write His independent Hoax letters!

. . . And the survey said. .. . . 'Pull Frit! (Or a two word combination that sounds very similar to that, anyway!)

I thought I posted about the celebrity cypher card on another thread here? If not , I have been working on finding a copy of the correct card, There are posts showing a beach that turns out to be Carmel beach in Monterey county ca. I was shown a picture of what was said to be thee card! I looked at the picture of the beach and knew where it had to be. I posted the picture I found and sure enough , it was match to the card that is shown on Z sites as the correct Zodiac card. It is not the correct card, because I have notes given to me by my Vallejo CHP officer friend ,who saw the original card with the cipher. He said it showed driftwood and it was "Ocean Beach". Now there are a few beaches in Calif. with that name. Knowing what I know about Zodiac, he would have sent a card that had a obscure clue on it. The "Ocean Beach" that I believe it is was in San Diego Ca. I knew about two murders there on Feb. 5th 1964. They were John and Joyce Swindle. The stamp that was used backs up what I believe. The stamp is of Marianne Moore who died on Feb 5th 1972, I do not think that was coincidence! As far as breaking the cipher. Lyndon who taught Code , broke it and it made sense to me. Zodiac in 1990 believed he was the celebrity, is what I think is on the card. The first name being Robt. Drop the Z logo down and you will have 9 letters for his last name starting with a H and ending with a Z.

These are the two main suspects that are being targeted in the ciphers of the 1990 Celebrity Cypher card.

Ron Goldman and Nicole Simpson
and
Kurt Cobain from Nirvana

They speak completely revealing phrases about the affairs before they happened in 1994. They were targeting them for some time. Two people left footprints at the Goldman and Simpson crime scene.

These were clearly planned events....the one shoe was a Wing Walker in design and the other had "Z"s built into the treads of the shoe.

Why is it that so many people think they are smarter than a person who taught code breaking and who saw the card first hand and broke it yrs ago?

People don't want to except the already broken code ,thinking theirs has to be correct and was a prediction to happen many yrs later? Please get a grip!