Washington & Maple because...

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Re: Washington & Maple because...

Post by WelshChappie on September 27th 2016, 5:21 pm

This question has been pondered over on many a thread. "Why W & M Streets?"

My answer to this question is:  Why not?

If He was heading for the Park, or even the general grounds of The Presidio, then why Washington and Any Street? If He's fully intending to run into the Park then surely the most logistical and convenient destination to get dropped at is Jackson and Cherry/Maple/Spruce?

See, now if, lets say, Zodiac resided on Jackson itself, well surely He isn't going to kill stine 5 Houses down from His own residence on the same street lest He be observed by His neighbor's who may recognize Him. So it would now, in this scenario, make perfect sense to get taken a street over and a couple blocks away from where you live and are heading.

The eldest of the Robbins Kids stated that just as Armond pulls up in the middle of the Intersection, Zodiac is just turning off Cherry and onto Jackson. Well let's look at the implications here. Armond make's it clear that as the call came over the radio He was very close to the given location and "We responded to that corner, and were albe to do so with red light and siren at 9:55 at night and got there very quickly." So, this has to mean that as Zodiac is casually traversing Cherry st, He simply cannot fail to hear Armonds car approaching with it's siren activated.

Zodiac upon hearing this We may expect to panic and, with Cherry Street summit offering a quick entrance through the Presidio wall and out of sight, He surely will use this option yes? No. Knowing Pelissetti is on His heels He decides to arrive at Cherry and Jackson Intersection and turn right and descend the hill. The Hill with it's sidewalk, under street lights of the populated streets lines with home's on each side of the street! Make Sense? No! Indeed, this is the decision that saw Him walk right into Don's headlights, a brilliant idea for a fleeing killer packing a 9mm and victims wallet & keys.

There's a very methodical method in what seems to be His Madness!
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Re: Washington & Maple because...

Post by WelshChappie on September 27th 2016, 9:09 pm

I am 100% with Chief Martin Lee and His opinion that "Zodiac is a liar." 

 I won't back His claim that Z was also, quote:  "He is a possible latent Homosexual, A clumsy criminal."  Quite how Lee can speak to His sexuality frm nowhere is confusing to Me. 

 Anyway, I agree with The Chief of Homicide Inspectors in His belief that Zodiac is a Liar & was not only not in that Park but, as Lee declared, wasn't anywhere in the area or vicinity of the Presidio.   

Chief Lee stated:

 "We had 7 Police K-9 Units, A small army of cops, and High Powered Flood Lights that made the area look like mid-day. We searched that whole area tree by tree and bush by bush.  A Mouse could not have escaped our attention! He was not in the Park!"

  I agree.
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Re: Washington & Maple because...

Post by ophion1031 on September 27th 2016, 9:44 pm

WelshChappie wrote:I am 100% with Chief Martin Lee and His opinion that "Zodiac is a liar." 

 I won't back His claim that Z was also, quote:  "He is a possible latent Homosexual, A clumsy criminal."  Quite how Lee can speak to His sexuality frm nowhere is confusing to Me. 

 Anyway, I agree with The Chief of Homicide Inspectors in His belief that Zodiac is a Liar & was not only not in that Park but, as Lee declared, wasn't anywhere in the area or vicinity of the Presidio.   

Chief Lee stated:

 "We had 7 Police K-9 Units, A small army of cops, and High Powered Flood Lights that made the area look like mid-day. We searched that whole area tree by tree and bush by bush.  A Mouse could not have escaped our attention! He was not in the Park!"

  I agree.

1. There is no proof of Z being a homosexual or having any sort of weird sexual orientation. Is it possible he was a homo? Yes. But nobody really knows for sure. I honestly have no opinion either way because I just don't know. If my opinion of there being a "team Zodiac" in play then that changes things in this regard. Was everyone involved into some weird sexual type of things? I don't even know if sexual orientation is all that important in the case. It could be, but it probably isn't.

2. It is definitely possible that Z hid in the park after the Stine murder, but I lean towards him lying as well. I believe that Mr. X had a reason to be out walking his dog... he was scoping things out because Stine's murderer was hiding out in Mr. X's home until morning. Can I prove this? Nope. It's just an opinion, not a fact. Now... did Z actually kill Stine? I don't know, but if he didn't then I think whoever did was a part of "team Z." I think the first two Zodiac murders were the same guy, but Lake Berryessa and Paul Stine may have been a different killer. Either way, I think they are connected and there was a minimum of two people involved in these crimes.
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Re: Washington & Maple because...

Post by WelshChappie on September 27th 2016, 10:07 pm

Well According to Mike Rodelli, He had been told by Mike Butterfield that Pelissetti has confessed to Him in confidence that, actually, He did not encounter the "Gentleman walking His Dog" on the street at all and, in fact, He had no dog either!

 Apparently, Armond is alleged to have told Butterfield that the Gentleman was actually off the street standing on a driveway. Armond is said to have declared: "He wasn't doing anything, just standing there. I called this man over and questioned Him and Kept an eye on Him keeping Him around with Me for a while."

 Now is that true, all or even in part? I have absolutely no idea whatsoever.
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Re: Washington & Maple because...

Post by ophion1031 on September 27th 2016, 10:21 pm

WelshChappie wrote:This question has been pondered over on many a thread. "Why W & M Streets?"

My answer to this question is:  Why not?

If He was heading for the Park, or even the general grounds of The Presidio, then why Washington and Any Street? If He's fully intending to run into the Park then surely the most logistical and convenient destination to get dropped at is Jackson and Cherry/Maple/Spruce?

See, now if, lets say, Zodiac resided on Jackson itself, well surely He isn't going to kill stine 5 Houses down from His own residence on the same street lest He be observed by His neighbor's who may recognize Him. So it would now, in this scenario, make perfect sense to get taken a street over and a couple blocks away from where you live and are heading.

The eldest of the Robbins Kids stated that just as Armond pulls up in the middle of the Intersection, Zodiac is just turning off Cherry and onto Jackson. Well let's look at the implications here. Armond make's it clear that as the call came over the radio He was very close to the given location and "We responded to that corner, and were albe to do so with red light and siren at 9:55 at night and got there very quickly." So, this has to mean that as Zodiac is casually traversing Cherry st, He simply cannot fail to hear Armonds car approaching with it's siren activated.

Zodiac upon hearing this We may expect to panic and, with Cherry Street summit offering a quick entrance through the Presidio wall and out of sight, He surely will use this option yes? No. Knowing Pelissetti is on His heels He decides to arrive at Cherry and Jackson Intersection and turn right and descend the hill. The Hill with it's sidewalk, under street lights of the populated streets lines with home's on each side of the street! Make Sense? No! Indeed, this is the decision that saw Him walk right into Don's headlights, a brilliant idea for a fleeing killer packing a 9mm and victims wallet & keys.

There's a very methodical method in what seems to be His Madness!

Yeah, no chance he commits a murder on the same street he lives. Probably not a chance he commits a murder in the neighborhood he lives in either, as Alex also mentioned.. That's one of the things I don't like about Mr. X, he was a very smart guy so what are the odds that he would kill a man in a neighborhood where he had lived for years and people knew his face? Even at that time of night it was far too risky. To me, that rules out Mr. X as being Z. BUT, I still think he played a role in the whole thing. It could have been a small role such as hiding the killer in his home, or maybe he played a bigger role such as planning the Stine murder or maybe he had some way or providing protection.

There are endless possibilities why the log book says one thing yet the murder takes place at another - a block away. It could be something ridiculous like... the killer gets to the original destination and remembers his mom used to stand at that corner in her younger days as a hooker, and he gets depressed and tells Stine to go up another block. Hey, that might even be the motivation! He wasn't going to kill Stine until that mental imagine popped into his head. I'm kidding, of course. But the point is, the reason the log book and the murder scene are different is unknown but there are a ton of different reasons why this could be. Do I have a guess as to why? Hmmm... I really don't have a good guess. It's one of those things that really makes you think because it could just be one of those things that if the reason was ever found out it could be something stupid and not important, or it could be a massive clue in the case... but the only way to know for sure is to figure out why.

Sorry for all of the typing and hopefully it all makes sense. I'm really tired and pretty much half asleep at the moment. Derp.
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Re: Washington & Maple because...

Post by ophion1031 on September 27th 2016, 10:31 pm

WelshChappie wrote:Well According to Mike Rodelli, He had been told by Mike Butterfield that Pelissetti has confessed to Him in confidence that, actually, He did not encounter the "Gentleman walking His Dog" on the street at all and, in fact, He had no dog either!

 Apparently, Armond is alleged to have told Butterfield that the Gentleman was actually off the street standing on a driveway. Armond is said to have declared: "He wasn't doing anything, just standing there. I called this man over and questioned Him and Kept an eye on Him keeping Him around with Me for a while."

 Now is that true, all or even in part? I have absolutely no idea whatsoever.

Wow... I hadn't heard/read that before. Or if I have then I somehow forgot about it. That makes things a little more interesting and I'm going to have to re-evaluate my thoughts because to me it made perfect sense that Mr. X would think "hmmm, I will act like I am taking the dog for a walk and, being a respected member of the neighborhood, nobody will even think to accuse me of anything." If I'm in the situation where I am hiding a murderer, this is exactly what I would do. But there is probably no way to confirm if there was a dog present or not.

If there was no dog and Mr. X were just standing there in his driveway then it is possible he murdered Stine, but still very doubtful. He would have had to go into his house and change his clothes and wash off a bunch of blood.
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Re: Washington & Maple because...

Post by ophion1031 on September 27th 2016, 11:04 pm

As I have stated, I do not think Mr. X was the murderer or Paul Stine, BUT there is always the chance he was involved and that is why I find him interesting. Now, there is another man who I do not think was Z that I think could have maybe been involved in Stine's murder. And I wonder if this man and Mr. X knew each other. Hell, they only lived I think 8 blocks from each other. Yep, I'm talking about Bill Thoresen. I have said it many times that I don't think Thoresen was Z or that he had anything to do with the early Z activity, but living exactly 1 mile from the Stine murder scene is something that I would really like to dig into. This guy was a total psychopath and was a night owl who, again, lived very close to the murder scene. If Stine did something to upset Thoresen, there is a pretty good chance that Thoresen paid someone to have Stine killed (that was his go to move). If it was a "heat of the moment" thing then yeah, I would get that because he would snap and get violent with very little provocation, but at the same time the Stine murder didn't really seem like a spontaneous thing to me. I doubt that a lot of planning was put into it, but it definitely didn't feel spontaneous.

One other thing I have been wondering is if the Stine murder was meant to send a message to someone who lived at Washington & Cherry, but the log book saying Washington & Maple would maybe make that a difficult theory to back up. Unless it was spontaneous. If the murder was planned out to send a message, wouldn't the log book just say Washington & Cherry? If it were not planned and the killer was in the Presidio and decided "I'm going to get a cab to so and so's house and kill the cab driver right there in the street to send so and so a message" then that would make sense. The killer could have thought the person he wanted to send a message to lived at Washington & Maple and when the get there he says "oops, wrong intersection, drive up one more block." This is probably all way off base, but these are the things my brain comes up with when I am bored. Why is this important? It's probably not, but I have researched several people who lived at or near Washington & Cherry and have found a couple of people who I found interesting.

1. Dr. Meyer Aaron Zeligs. He was too old to be Z, but my thought is that Z (or whoever it was the killed Paul Stine) was a patient of Dr. Zeligs. This guy's office was 2 or 3 blocks from the location where Stine picked up his killer, and his home was located at Washington & Cherry. Not directly at the corner, but a few houses back. Dr. Zeligs could have easily seen the murder take place from his front yard. Here is a link to a thread on Dr. Zeligs: http://zodiackiller.forumotion.com/t511-sf-directory-possible-pois

2. George Livermore, a well known and respected architect who came from a family that everyone in San Francisco knew. Mr. Livermore lived at the corner of Washington & Cherry in 1966, but moved at some point before 1969. In 1966, he did business with Thoresen. He was hired to draw up plans to remodel the Thoresen mansion. Thoresen had racked up quite a bill but only paid a little bit of that bill. Livermore was a big athletic guy so it makes we wonder if he tried to collect this debt or maybe sent a collection agency or did something to make Thoresen mad. And, again, we must remember that Thoresen had a very short fuse. He once broke a waiter's arm because his bill was 50 cents more than it should have been. Yep, a rich guy breaking a man's arm over 50 cents! So... maybe Thoresen tries sending a message to Livermore. It would be something that he would do. But like I said before, he would have likely used a hitman instead of doing the job himself. This is probably an even longer shot than the theory of Stine's killer being a patient of Dr. Zeligs, but it is a possibility. I have gone in depth more on these subjects in other threads and work is busy right now so I'm gonna wrap this one up.
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Re: Washington & Maple because...

Post by WelshChappie on September 28th 2016, 1:31 am

Kjell Qvale & whether He was Zodiac or not Kjell Himself, by giving a sample of His DNA freely for comparison.... I kinda knew then and there He wasn't Zodiac before any results came back.

  Criminals, especially murderers, who know that they have left DNA behind at their crime scene ain't usually desperate to give Law Enforcement their DNA to match to the DNA at the scene. Doing so would quickly result in a home visit from the Forces own S.W.A.T team knocking down rather on the front door.  Anyway, Kjell's DNA was compared and, as expected, "No match."

 But yeah, Armond said He came across a WMA on a driveway at the House located on Maple. There isn't one on Maple with a drive so I think AP simply meant the house with drive way not on Maple, but at Maple Intersection. 

 Mike Rodelli would be best person to speak to about this.
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Re: Washington & Maple because...

Post by ophion1031 on September 28th 2016, 10:16 pm

I thought Qvale denied a request to test his DNA. I must be mistaken, havent read up on him in a while. Rodelli has done a great job with Qvale. I think he makes a good POI because he very well could have been involved in some way.

I guess it all comes down to whether there was a reason this neighborhood was chosen of if it was random. But how the hell do we find that out? Seems impossible. If it was random, there goes a bunch of theories out the window. If not, there are some interesting ways to look at it.

Sorry if I'm wording things poorly. I only slept 2 hours today and can't keep my eyes open.
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Re: Washington & Maple because...

Post by Don Pseuym on September 29th 2016, 10:53 am

when I took cab's in the early 70's you had to have the address of the place not just like a cross street for the driver , and if you told them 3898 cherry   you couldn't say  at the destination oh wait its up a block ,you were set out at 3898 Cherry and if you wanted to pay  another fare they would take you
usually the cab driver called it into the base dispatch so if they got a rider on the way the cab would pick up that fare too and Maple & wash would not work at the dispatch .
If you knew the correct address they think you at least know enough to have a ligit reason for going there ,or if you were to bail someone at the address might know who you were

wonder if zodiac had ridden with stine before so Stine thinks it's ok

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Re: Washington & Maple because...

Post by WelshChappie on October 1st 2016, 6:45 am

ophion1031 wrote:I thought Qvale denied a request to test his DNA. I must be mistaken, havent read up on him in a while. Rodelli has done a great job with Qvale. I think he makes a good POI because he very well could have been involved in some way.

I guess it all comes down to whether there was a reason this neighborhood was chosen of if it was random. But how the hell do we find that out? Seems impossible. If it was random, there goes a bunch of theories out the window. If not, there are some interesting ways to look at it.

Sorry if I'm wording things poorly. I only slept 2 hours today and can't keep my eyes open.

"I thought Qvale denied a request to test his DNA. "


https://youtu.be/LCYbAdzCAjE?t=33m40s
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Re: Washington & Maple because...

Post by ophion1031 on October 13th 2016, 2:34 am

WelshChappie wrote:
ophion1031 wrote:I thought Qvale denied a request to test his DNA. I must be mistaken, havent read up on him in a while. Rodelli has done a great job with Qvale. I think he makes a good POI because he very well could have been involved in some way.

I guess it all comes down to whether there was a reason this neighborhood was chosen of if it was random. But how the hell do we find that out? Seems impossible. If it was random, there goes a bunch of theories out the window. If not, there are some interesting ways to look at it.

Sorry if I'm wording things poorly. I only slept 2 hours today and can't keep my eyes open.

"I thought Qvale denied a request to test his DNA. "


https://youtu.be/LCYbAdzCAjE?t=33m40s

Thanks! Didn't noticed you had posted that until just now.

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