what the keys to 912 looked like

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what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by Don Pseuym on September 16th 2015, 7:41 pm

here is a link to the site that posted my story of finding te satchel recently I recreated what the cab keys looked like and Richard put it there
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-eve-of-all-hallows

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by Matthew Mayer on September 20th 2015, 8:55 pm

Good read! I like that website, they provide some really solid information.



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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by Matthew Mayer on September 20th 2015, 8:56 pm

So you actually found the keys to Stine's cab in this satchel? Were there other keys with it?



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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by Don Pseuym on September 22nd 2015, 7:08 am

[quote="Matthew Mayer"]So you actually found the keys to Stine's cab in this satchel? Were there other keys with it?



Matthew[/quote
Yes a unique set  with a fob key chain
I know they say hartnells key and wallet were not taken ,but I say it was his . The keys were VW AND very special keys that I believe were made that only the maker could duplicate by design , two keys , I think they were dorm and dorm room
Plus there were many many items at the bottom,that I did not go thru

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by sandy betts on February 17th 2017, 12:38 pm

If any of these items could be proven to be connected to any Zodiac crime, why hasn't LE looked into it?
The Zodiac did not take Hartnell's keys, they were used to move his car after the crime scene was cleared.

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by WelshChappie on February 18th 2017, 6:39 am

I think, just from My own perspective anyway, that Z took Paul's Keys not because He intended to use them as proof later, or as a trophy of His success, but rather He simply wanted that Cab and It's blood soaked interior to remain in situ. for as long as possible. 

 Why? Because of The Area He left it in. Cab Drivers being shot and blood spatter everywhere, that happens downtown with the down and outs, not in Plush, upper middle class Presidio Heights. Their are a large No. of Patrol Cars Patrolling that area, it's sort after as a residential area for the rich because it has a lower crime rate. 

 Zodiac likely knew, or strongly suspected, that if He left the Cab with Keys present, the first thing LE would do is remove it from that area. It's a vehicle crime scene so the whole vehicle being taken away is standard. He wanted His 'Art Work' to stay on Display in the Gallery of Presidio Heights as long as possible to maximize the effect it had on those who live up there.

 Hartnell's Car was parked in a quiet, non public area of road out on the lakeside. Nobody will see it and hence, He could scroll the message on Bryan's door without anyone seeing Him do it.

 I think in P. Heights, there was at least some method in His utter madness in deciding to lumber off with Taxi Cab's Keys.

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by sandy betts on February 18th 2017, 9:24 am

Many people think that Hartnell's car was parked in a parking area off the road, but the truth is it was on Knoxville rd, where cars pass by. Zodiac wrote on the passenger side of the car which would have hidden what he was doing somewhat. Not very many cars are there after 6:30pm, the sun is down and starting to get dark at that time.
The cab company's keep extra keys, so no problem moving the cab as soon as the crime scene investigation was finished. We can only speculate as to why the keys were taken. He may have mailed them to the police on the anniversary date and that wasn't made public? Many things have been kept from the public is my guess? I was told a long time ago by a relative who was with the FBI, that we have a misconception of Zodiac.They obviously know something about him that we don't.

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by WelshChappie on February 18th 2017, 9:43 am

Well I am impressed with that so much that I am promoting you, Investigator Betts,  from a Det. to Det. Sgt. **Applause**

 Chief of Amateur Investigators:  Insp. A. Lewis of The SFWD, or San Francisco Welsh Dpt. is impressed with Det. Sgt. Betts noting the following:


"I was told a long time ago by a relative who was with the FBI, that we have a misconception of Zodiac.They obviously know something about him that we don't."

 I've repeatedly said the exact same thing Hun on many a site and thread. Going by experience in what people tend to respond to this suggestion with I have found is that people are almost unwilling, certainlly reluctant, to accept the idea Law Enforcement are covering anything up and they will usually choose to accept that the contradictions between cops, and letting the Suspect walk away on Jackson Street is all explainable by simple mistakes in cops dropping the ball, and Armond and Don are confused and neither is deliberately lying but simply remembering the events differently.

 I can't, won't and never have accepted that as an explanation that is even remotely plausible. Cops are neither idiots and stupid, nor are they prone to lying for no good reason!

 If a cop lies about an event that's taken place with Himself involved, then it will be due to He knowing something about that event that He doesn't want others to know or find out about. Case and point in recent times is The White Cop who shot dead a young African American driver who He claimed tried pulling away and dragging the Cop with His arm wedged in the vehicles door along the road. When His Body cam was taken and reviewed, the District Attorney called a press conference to announce He has just issued an Arrest Warrant for the Cop in question on a charge of First Degree Murder saying: 

"The driver doesn't do anything other than reach for His Licence and Insurance as instructed to by the Officer. The Officer responds by shooting Him execution style. This is clearly A Homicide."


 Similarly, Fouke will have reason for lying, We just don't know what it is He's concealing.

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by sandy betts on February 18th 2017, 5:51 pm

Insp. A Lewis .Perhaps it was fear that Zodiac would retaliate? I doubt that Zelms would have told his wife that they spoke to who they believed was Zodiac, unless it was true.
Sometimes when someone tells a lie, they stick to it and that might be what Fouke did? For what ever reason he didn't put it in his report and couldn't explain why he didn't report it, would be one reason. We know Zodiac lied about many things, but why lie about the police stopping him? I know they got a good look at the man on Jackson st, because I spoke to the Artist who drew the composite and he told me that both officers helped with the second composite. He told me that they stopped the man they saw on Jackson street. That is how they got a very good look at him. People ask if that is so, why didn't they see blood on the man? The jacket was dark, blood on a dark color wouldn't look like blood , it would look dirty is all. Rust colored pants, blood would pretty much blend in. Also if there was a large spot of blood it would have been mostly on Zodiac's left side , which would have been hidden from anyone coming from the opposite direction. The spot would have been on the side facing the houses not the street.

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by Rocketman on February 18th 2017, 10:35 pm

Yep, the only way the police would have seen blood on him is if they were within 10-15 feet and they were both standing directly or very close to being under a street light.
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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by Rocketman on February 18th 2017, 10:44 pm

I think that is something that needs to be played out. Police should have done this - get an actor who is roughly the same size/build as how Z was described, dress him in the same clothes and put fake blood on him and send him out to that neighborhood and have actors or hell, even real policemen go out and recreate the whole thing. This probably wouldn't work though because you wouldn't have the same exact scenario. We know the cops were looking for a negro male at the time that they encountered Z. You would probably have to get people who nothing about the Zodiac case to play the thing out and improvise. Put them in the position that they are cops and they get this call and just let them improvise from there and see what happens when they encounter Z.
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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by Rocketman on February 18th 2017, 10:47 pm

If you were to get someone familiar with the case to do this, they will be looking for the blood on this man or looking for any small suspicious thing they could find. The SFPD officers were not paying attention or looking for those things because they still thought they were after a negro male.
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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by sandy betts on February 18th 2017, 11:22 pm

Very true, but you have a good idea. I would like just for the heck of it, to see if one of us could wear clothes that color and put some blood from meat on the clothes, to see if it would show up in the dark? I was reading about the crime scene. Paul Stine was sitting up for the most part of his blood coming out of his head wound. I think that the blood stops pumping about 12 seconds after death? So that tells me most was already on his shirt, before Zodiac moved his body to get the wallet out of his pocket.Then when his head was down on the floor board more came out. There might not have been a lot on Zodiac's clothes?

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by WelshChappie on February 19th 2017, 7:21 am

Sandy, you stated:


 "Sometimes when someone tells a lie, they stick to it and that might be what Fouke did?"

Well when you tell the truth, you don't need to have a good memory because the truth never changes no matter how much time goes by. A Liar, on the other hand, who makes up false facts and such, He had better have a good memory because He will need to remember what His lie was when asked about it on the second, third and forth occasions. 

  Fouke hasn't stuck to a lie though Hun, and nobody needed to trip Him up because as with most people who are not natural liars, He ended up tripping Himself up. He claimed from 1969 - 2007, after being forced by Zodiac's own comments to the Chronicle, that He last observed the White Male heading, quote: "North on Maple Street" AKA toward the Presidio. 

 Then, in 2007, Don told a contradictory version to this on camera saying: "Because He was putting His head down when He spotted the Police Car and Turned into the entrance way of a House. By entrance way, I mean stairs leading up to a path that leads to the front door of a house. Never saw Him get to the top of the stairs. You want the address to that residence? Thirty Seven Twelve, Jackson Street. I never put it in My report, and I don't think I ever told anyone."


  Then in the same documentary, Fouke claims that He bypassed Maple and continued on where He, Quote:

 "Turned Southbound on Cherry St. and saw Armond Pelissetti who stopped us and said He was looking for the WM that had just gone down the street. There was a little discussion about the initial description and He (Armond) said 'No, He was a WM."  

 However, in a previous documentary 'Crimes of the Century - Zodiac' Fouke declares on camera that He noticed the WM at or near Maple saying: 

"Seen as We were looking for a Negro Male Adult were proceeded on toward Arguello continuing our Search. As We arrived at Arguello Street the suspects description was changed to that of a White Male. Believing that the individual We had just passed was possibly the suspect we proceeded around onto West Pacific Avenue looking for the suspect. Did not find the suspect."

 So again, in one account He passed Maple and turns South onto Cherry St and is notified of the descriptive error by Pelissetti who is on Cherry st. In the other previous version, there is no mention of Him encountering Armond Pelissetti because He doesn't turn onto Cherry where Armond is, in this version He bypasses it and heads toward, then arrives at, Arguello St/Blvd. It's at this point as He arrives here, He claims, that He got the updated suspect description which could only have been received by Him via His Patrol Cars Radio.

 Don states, in the version where He turns South onto Cherry that A.P and He had a brief discussion of the description given and Don says He replied to Armond by telling Him: "Oh Shit! That was the suspect!" meaning the WMA He's just passed.  The Camera cuts to Armond who has eyebrows raised and a puzzled look on His face as He responds to that comment by saying: "Uhhh, He did not mention to Me, at that point, that He had seen anybody, or that He had stopped someone." Armond went on to attempt to come to His colleagues defense but in doing so makes a counter-intuitive statement saying:

 "I believe that Fouke would have been Honest. . . However, what He told Me and what He wrote in that scratch does not match."

 In other words, Armond is basically saying that He believes that Don Fouke is a man of good character and a honest individual, however, in relation to this statement He made, He is telling a different story now to the camera than what He initially told Armond in confidence.

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by sandy betts on February 19th 2017, 9:44 am

Yes , I remember you and I having that discussion and the address being 3712 Jackson st. I think we figured out the address by reading Fouke's lips? And that was not where Mr X lived. I am glad that officer Zelms told his wife the true story, which fits what Zodiac said happened. It would take less than a minute from Maple and Pacific to the back door of the Spruce and Pacific apt where I believe he went. That is why if Fouke and Zelms did head back east up Pacific, they didn't see him again.The dogs wouldn't be able to smell him inside of a apt.

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by WelshChappie on February 19th 2017, 9:54 am

"I know they got a good look at the man on Jackson st, because I spoke to the Artist who drew the composite and he told me that both officers helped with the second composite. He told me that they stopped the man they saw on Jackson street. That is how they got a very good look at him."

 Eric's Widow said similar. 

 She is said to have stated that Eric told Her that they did stop and speak to the Man on Jackson Street and specifically used the term: "Face to Face" and that Eric seemed very troubled when He discovered Zodiac was responsible it was He they had spoke with and said Eric seemed affected by this and She said He would often go over the events to try and remember if they missed something but said that there was nothing and Eric said that there was absolutely nothing stand out about Him, He just looked like the average Guy. Then Eric said, "He spoke completely calm and answered all of our questions. There was nothing at all to cause us to be suspicious of Him."

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by WelshChappie on February 19th 2017, 10:01 am

Dianna Zelms Stating that Eric told Her they not only spoke to Zodiac but that He used the term 'Face to Face' corroborates what the Zodiac said happened in His boastful letter of: 

 "I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up and one of them called Me over and asked Me had I seen anyone acting strange or suspicious in the past 5 to 10 Minutes."

If You called Me over to speak to You Sandy, then I likely will do just that, walk over to You and be chatting 'Face to Face.'

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by sandy betts on February 19th 2017, 10:07 am

Yes exactly and we know that Zodiac could act calm in not so good situations. He knew how to behave to not draw attention to himself.

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by WelshChappie on February 19th 2017, 11:43 am

Well Harvey spoke to Toschi at a fair length and it seems, at least from Harveys report anyway, that Dave Toschi was well aware the cops stopped the WMA.

 Case and Point:

 Below: Excerpt Copied here from the 120 page report of Harvey's. . .
   

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by sandy betts on February 19th 2017, 12:19 pm

I had a few phone conversations with Dave Toschi back in the early 70's he told me the same thing. He also mentioned that Zodiac had a odd way of sealing his envelopes which made it easier to recognize his letters. He was interested in my boyfriend at that time,being he had a boat and was at Lake B the weekend of Sept 27th.And that he wanted to commit the perfect murder! He asked me to get some handwriting from my boyfriend, but before I could get that, Toschi was accused of writing a couple of letters. I stopped at that point.I also stopped dating the boyfriend LOL.
Toschi was the best of the best ! He listened to everything I had to say, unlike other detectives I have spoken to over the years. My thoughts on the dispatcher thinking the perp. was black, is that while she was talking to the teens she asked for a description of the man in the cab and they could have said it was very dark. She took that as a description instead of it being very dark outside?

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by WelshChappie on February 19th 2017, 12:38 pm

sandy betts wrote:I had a few phone conversations with Dave Toschi back in the early 70's he told me the same thing. He also mentioned that Zodiac had a odd way of sealing his envelopes which made it easier to recognize his letters. He was interested in my boyfriend at that time,being he had a boat and was at Lake B the weekend of Sept 27th.And that he wanted to commit the perfect murder! He asked me to get some handwriting from my boyfriend, but before I could get that, Toschi was accused of writing a couple of letters. I stopped at that point.I also stopped dating the boyfriend LOL.
Toschi was the best of the best ! He listened to everything I had to say, unlike other detectives I have spoken to over the years. My thoughts on the dispatcher thinking the perp. was black, is that while she was talking to the teens she asked for a description of the man in the cab and they could have said it was very dark. She took that as a description instead of it being very dark outside?

I don't believe that error ever was broadcast Sandy. It's too easy an excuse and very convenient that this 'BMA/NMA' error was broadcast, it excuses Fouke's actions for letting a White Man walk away.

 Inconspicuous it is by it's absence is any mention of an initial BMA broadcast in any official reports or Media Channels in the entire One Month proceeding Oct 11. Then, and only then, after Zodiac writes and essentially declares, PS..., did I tell you that the cops stopped Me and questioned Me?" Only when Zodiac, as He himself puts it, Rubbed the SFPD's Face in their own Incompetence do the Dpt. respond by claiming, "Uhhh, Yes Our Officers did stop a white Man that evening, However, please let us explain why it is acceptable that they did not apprehend, or at least detain, A White Male not 100 yards from the crime scene some 3 to 4 minutes after it occurs......"

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by WelshChappie on February 19th 2017, 12:46 pm

The San Francisco Police Dpt. are talking shit, they are lying and using this story of an initial incorrect broadcast to avoid having to answer for such outright incompetent actions. They know very well Sandy the public backlash coming if they don't have a very good reason/excuse for what Fouke did that night. Zodiac knew it too, that's why He added His little 'PS: 2 Cops pulled a goof' segment that He bracketed with an arrow (MUST PRINT THIS IN PAPER).

 Do You really think that if the public of the Bay Area found out that their protectors had stopped and chatted to the most wanted Man in America bidding Him goodbye by thanking Him for being of assistance that the people would have any confidence or trust in the SFPD ever again? Not a chance.

 Enter the Excusing of their actions by reasons which will let them save their own blushes!

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by WelshChappie on February 19th 2017, 1:08 pm

And who is this grossly incompetent, bumbling dispatcher who is also, it seems, slightly Racist? Let Me ask this dispatcher why this fatal error got broadcast, He/She has to answer/give account for being intellectually brilliant enough to confuse 'WHITE' with the word that sounds so similar. . . 'BLACK'

 *Hmmmm*

Come on, we have access to Miss Slover and Mister Slaight (May they both RIP) so where is SFPD's dispatchers name and known details?  

 The Dpt. have told Me "MR Alex of Wales: Dear Sir. Dpt. policy prohibits Us from furnishing the public with Names and Addresses of both past and present employees of The SFPD and especially those that do not exist!"

 Fell free to Fcuk Off, and hope this answers your query.

 Yours Disrespectfully: 

SFPD."

That's what the acronym SFPD must stand for:

Stories of Fiction, Please Dont-Ask.

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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by Sick E. Von Brutal on February 19th 2017, 9:43 pm

if the description went out as 'a black adult male with brownish-red hair and a crewcut' how suspicious is that? I'd bet that at least one officer heard that and replied by radio to verify that description because there probably wasn't a single person in san Francisco who would fit that description. I'm with you alex, I don't buy that it was just an 'error' there is no way any police department could be that incompetent.
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Re: what the keys to 912 looked like

Post by sandy betts on February 20th 2017, 11:44 am

How do we know that the description of the hair etc didn't come after the BOLO of a black male suspect? We don't. The reason that the Slover and Slaight's names were mentioned ,was that they actually spoke to the Zodiac, that was a huge deal back then.
San Francisco is like a different country, they have different rules than the surrounding areas. They harbor criminals, it is a sanctuary city where bad people are protected. They probably felt that they needed to protect the blundering dispatcher and thought of it as a simple mistake? I can't go along with the idea that there was a cover up for Foukes and Zelms. Maybe the detectives were hoping that Zodiac would respond with another letter, by denying that the officers spoke to Zodiac? Many mistakes have been made in the Zodiac case and they sadly continue to this day by ignoring real evidence, or even losing it! Zodiac has been very lucky so far, hopefully his luck has ran out. It is my understanding that Fouke wasn't questioned about seeing the white male on Jackson st, until after the Zodiac sent the letter saying he was stopped. That is why it wasn't in the original report. I believe Fouke wrote another report after the first one?

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