Joe Stines Challenge to Zodiac: "Come Get Me Next, I dare You!"

I have been thinking about Joe, Paul's Brother, and His direct and on Camera Challenge to Zodiac after He had Killed Paul telling Zodiac the following, and I am Paraphrasing Joe here. . .

 "You took My Brother's Life in a cowardly way. I offer Myself as Your next Victim, come try and kill Me! I DARE YOU!! I go from My Home to work every day on a bicycle leaving Home at. . ."

Joe then continues by telling Zodiac the times of Day and route He takes.

 I absolutely and completely understand the Challenge He gives Zodiac was One laid down for Him when Joe's emotional response and impulsive reaction was speaking rather than His concise, rational and non anger and rage inspired comments. I wouldn't mind betting that if You asked Jow 5,8 maybe 10 years later He wouldn't necessarily regret issuing that challenge to Z, but likely acknowledge it was not something He thought about or considered the clear implications of what it would mean if Zodiac decided to accept Joe's offer.

 Zodiac would hold all the Aces. Knows what Joe looks like, where He will be at given time, and can pick His day, month and year to show up along Joe's Route.

 Joe on the other hand, Joe could be stood at a bus-stop 30 inches away from the other Gentleman also waiting for the next bus at the bus stop, a fellow with horm rimmed glasses and a concealed 9mm. Joe would not have any idea He was Zodiac. But anyway, the subsequent set of events that transpire are, to My mind at least, Zodiac MO all over.

 After Joe issued His challenge along with a few well placed insults for good measure, it isn't Joe Stine that has an encounter of concern thereafter but rather, Carol Stine, Paul & Joe's Sister.

 Carol was returning from a visit to A Relative late in the early hours of the Morning and saw the odd car here and there passing by as a set of passing headlights, that was until she turned onto a dark and deserted interstate!

 In Her rear view mirror some distance behind, maybe half a mile or so, noticed a vehicles headlights. She took little notice until She glanced up again and noticed the car had closed distance on Her quite quickly. In no time it was right behind Her. Almost immediately the second car began honking it's horn and flashing the headlights for 45 seconds, maybe a minute. The Driver of this car seemed to realize He was not getting A responsive notification from Carol, she neither pulled over nor slow to let the car pass and so, the second car swung out into the adjacent lane and came up alongside Carol. She glances at the driver, still honking and now pointing down at her car's tyre. Carol said she immediately felt the instinctive urge that it was Her Brothers Killer. 

 Carol said that to this day she has no idea why She reacted by doing it, probably sheer nervousness but, she stuck her tongue out at Him and sped away.

To Me, that's the mentality of Zodiac all over. Joe challenges Zodiac Directly, and Z likely smells a set up! So, Zodiac will teach Joe a lesson for going in front of a News Crew and Camera to issue Challenges to Himself by taking away yet another one of His beloved siblings, this time in the form of His Sister, Carol.

 Had Carol have fell for such a ruse and stopped/pulled to the roadside, I don't think She'd have made it off of that Deserted Interstate Alive. Pulling over to a stop would likely have signed Her death warrant in My personal Opinion. Carol Herself said She couldn't tell You How she knew, nor What gave Her instinctual fear and a knowing that the man honking and flashing His lights at Her, that Man is the Man who Murdered Her Brother.
 
 Carol made statements that from the moment she learned of Her Brothers Murder, something inside Her had always known somehow that One day, in some distant time and place, the man who Killed Paul would come and seek to take Her life also. Asked why she believed such an ominous knowing or feeling that She was marked out By Zodiac, Carol could only Say that She doesn't know How She knew it, but She is not in any doubt that Somehow, Someway, She always knew He'd come after Her too.

 If you happen to believe in a Higher Being, or simply that a deceased loved One is still watching over you in another realm then, well then it would be great to believe that Paul was looking out for His Sister and was responsible for that feeling or knowing that Zodiac would One day come after Her.  I am neither claiming to support such a spiritual notion nor reject it, Belief's on religious grounds are for individual people to believe whatever they wish. I simply make the point that it would be a heart warming and love inspired belief that consciousness continues outside of & independent of the Human Mind on some level,  and that it was Her brother Paul, from somewhere and by some how, was ensuring His Sister would not fall pray to the same sick and cowardly individual who had taken His own life at Washington and Cherry Street.

 All Carol could offer as to how she knew the Man alongside Her and Her Brother's Murderer were one and the same was (And again, I am Paraphrasing: 

 "I just knew it as soon as I saw the headlights in the distance behind Me closing the gap rapidly on Me & My Vehicle. Something just told Me Instinctively that this is it, this is the Day I will encounter Paul's Killer. I always knew the day would come and I had no doubt that this was the Man who took My brother's life. I was so sure of it that there was no thought nor chance of Me stopping or pulling over!  He was pointing at My wheel mouthing something with an urgent expression on His face and I just put tongue out at Him, followed by putting My foot to the floor."

 WARNING & DISCLAIMER! 


 What follows is Certified Opinion, not fact. The opinion expressed is, obviously, My own but I don't claim to 'Know' Zodiac didn't travel up front, I just form an opinion based on what I know and see of His personality type that He wouldn't have done so.
 
 Zodiac, for Me, was riding in the cabs rear seating compartment because this would offer the best chance to issue A sneeky, Cowardly attack from the blindside which Zodiac would seem to prefer when He'faved with another Male.

We know from BRS because Mageau survived that, like Faraday, Zodiac was intent and tried to shoot the Male on scene in the head immediately eliminating the Male threat.
 We can't know this is what Happened at LHR and David Faraday but, because Zodiac tried to kill Mike straight away and refused to tie Bryan up Himself at Lake B.....Safe assumption in My mind to have made that Zodiac is a complete and total coward! He's going for a blitz style ambush attack every single day of the week and twice on a Sunday if He's targeting another Male!  Paul would not likely have seen it coming nor knew anything about, not until it was too late. 

 Zodiac up front? Not for Me, facing another Male head on, looking Him in the eye at less than 1ft distance is far too terrifying for someone like Z. Giving Male's the small possibility to see the attack/gun coming at them and thwart His attempt by getting into a struggle with another Male, Good God He'd have no confidence nor self belief He could ever come out on top. Especially against someone Like Paul who, as the Coroner noted, was A Well Nourished, well built and healthy 29 year old Male. 

God forbid the Gun should Jam as He faced another Male! My God He'd feel just like the Proverbial fish out of water having no idea what to do! I'd say He'd probably run away, and do so very quickly!

Do you know if Joe is still alive? It would be cool to see if he would be down to do an interview.

I also think that Z would have accepted Joe's challenge 5-10 years down the road but at the time of the proposed challenge he couldn't. It was far too risky. It was probably cleared by the police for Joe to do this and was probably a way to try to set Z up. Too bad it failed.

I don't know why I had no knowledge about this and I didn't even know that Stine had a brother. Wow. What way did he go about making a challenge to Zodiac? Was it on the news or in a newspaper or sometjing?

I knew that Joe Stine issued a challenge to Z but I never knew that about Carol. Great job finding that, Welsh.
Kind of similar to the Kathleen Johns ordeal, hunh?
I totally understand Carol being scared and wanting to get away, but I sure wish she could have gotten the tag number off that dude's car.

Carol has spoken to several Zodiac researchers over the years and hasn't been shy about sharing information from what I understand. If my memory is worth a damn, I think Stine's widow has even talked a little bit.

Rocketman wrote:I don't know why I had no knowledge about this and I didn't even know that Stine had a brother. Wow. What way did he go about making a challenge to Zodiac? Was it on the news or in a newspaper or sometjing?

 Joe was Interviewed by a News Crew in the immediate aftermath of Paul's Murder. His interview was broadcast on TV where He directly challenged Zodiac to come try get Him next. That's why I say it was so risky because if Zodiac see's that, He now knows both that Joe is calling Him out and exactly what Joe looks like.

As it was, I believe Zodiac took Joe up on His challenge but did so indirectly by going after another of Joe's loved ones with His sister, Carol, being the target. 

 Smacks of a Zodiac response to Me. Zodiac's mentality was likely:

"So you wanna call Me out on TV and call Me a coward challenging Me to come try kill You next? I'll pass on going after You directly, I'll hit you where it will hurt twice by already killing your Brother and now, now I'm relieving You of another Sibling in the form of your Sister Carol."

If memory serves Me, I am sure Carol opened up and spoke openly about Her Brother Paul saying that before He came to San Francisco He had had some mental issues and had spent some period of time in a psychiatric hospital. 

 I think Carol had agreed to speak about Paul and Zodiac in general and did so in Tom's Chat Room. There is a transcript of that discussion I think, maybe try checking Voigt's Site. I can't go on that site personally I apologize but I threw up the last two times I was there due to the stench of the Bull Shit that filled the atmosphere!

Metal Years wrote:I knew that Joe Stine issued a challenge to Z but I never knew that about Carol. Great job finding that, Welsh.
Kind of similar to the Kathleen Johns ordeal, hunh?
I totally understand Carol being scared and wanting to get away, but I sure wish she could have gotten the tag number off that dude's car.

 Yeah but I completely understand Why she didn't. Earlier this year while riding My Motor-Cycle, I was forced to take evasive action to avoid a second vehicle colliding with Me but in doing so, had no choice other than to hit a high curb and lose control of the bike and went down to the concrete with the bike. Anyway, I called police to report the accident/incident and when they arrived several minutes later I explained what had Happened and that the second vehicle didn't stop thus, has committed the offence of leaving the scene of an accident. 

 First question The Officer asked Me: "Did you get the other drivers Licence Plate Number?" (UK version of what You in the States refer to as 'The Tag') I replied: "No I didn't Officer, I was pre-occupied with the Ground coming directly at Me. I assure you Officer, when your about to crash to the ground at speed with absolutely no control over what is about to happen, You don't think to look at the other car's licence number, the Concrete Floor and Your imminent introduction to it takes precedence and trying not to die in the process." 

 The Cop, thankfully, had a sense of humor and chuckled at My slightly sarcastic response before saying: "Alex, I don't blame You. I'd have done the same mate, it's natural to prioritize your own self preservation and life when your presented with something that has the potential to cause fatal injury."


 The point I make is, when you have a threat to your own safety and/or life, tunnel vision sets in on your own surviving that and everything else becomes completely irrelevant.

Lol, Welsh. I'm glad you survived to tell the story.
I don't in any way blame Carol for not getting the license plate (to use the preferred legal term and spelling here in the US--I'm just a dumb redneck from America's stupid belt and thus "tags") of the vehicle that waz harassing her. I just wish that as she sped off she would have looked in the rear-view mirror and tried to get the license number, CA being one of those states that require tags on the front as well as back of cars. O well.
www.zodiackiller.com waz the 1st Z site I ever checked out. It's poorly laid out and they definitely have an agenda promoting Gyke as Z. But I met some cool people in the chat they used to have and read a lot of good information on there. Their message boards look like shit and they're hard to read.
I've been given to understand that Paul Stine briefly spent some time in the silly shed because his Mom got him put in there. He wazn't there long and that's far from proof of him actually having a mental illness.
I read somewhere that Paul's wife, Claudia, long ago politely declined to discuss anything with any Zsearchers. If I could ask her one question, it would be, "Are you the 'Claudia' listed in Darlene Ferrin's address book?"

O yeah; I hope you didn't get badly hurt. At least you have the National Health Service over there. I  got my leg fucked up pretty good skateboarding a few months ago and it sucked.

Metal Years wrote:O yeah; I hope you didn't get badly hurt. At least you have the National Health Service over there. I  got my leg fucked up pretty good skateboarding a few months ago and it sucked.

 No I ended up with bruised ribs and small cut on the upper arm. It was a second Motor Bike rider, some idiot who looked about 10, responsible and I still remember the face because He was so close as I glanced in My side Mirror. I was absolutely furious that they caused this to happen and continued on their merry way and the police probably wished they hadn't said Yes when I asked them for a lift Home.  

 I was ranting & raving in anger that If I ever see this prick again, He'd better hope He isn't stationary at a red light. I foresee His having a most unfortunate accident that see's Him come off His own Bike. . . and I'm taking a run up to deliver the foot that causes Him to fly off! 

 I still remember The Cop's Name and Collar Number because He wen't above His required duty to give Me a ride Home. Police Constable Jenkins was His Name and His advise was:

 "Alex, now don't be silly. If you do that Al then we'll be called out and You will be the Person arrested."

 I declared Myself immediately to be The Victim of Horrendous Crime (which I tried to announce without laughing but failed): "I'll kick Him off it and call you Myself personally while I say to the prick that's 'Fallen of' His motorbike that I am now going to demonstrate for Him how to take responsibility for your own actions by sitting on the roadside awaiting the arrival of The Police who are about to apprehend Me because I, unlike Yourself, will not run away to avoid any consequences."

 PC Jenkins: "Alex, just let it go, just be thankful your not seriously injured..."

My Interruption: "No I ain't, but that F****r will be if I see Him on the road anywhere..."

 PC J: "Alex, that's not going to solve anything, is it?"

 Mr Lewis, By now the Self-Declared Crime of The Century Victim. . .

  "Yes it F****g will! It'll solve My f****** rage filled need to see that F****** have His own very violent, yet highly successful, Motorbike accident!! Just here will Be fine, I live just a street away. Thank you Officers and I shall see You when Your next called to a serious assault involving a pedestrian, a flying kick and a motorcycle rider. Take Care.!"

I hope you catch that A'hole! Maybe before you go kick his ass, put on a mask or something to obscure your visage. I've been told that the UK has surveillance spying-ass cameras and the like even worse than we do here.
I'm not a big fan of the po-po but Constable Jenkins seems pretty cool. Here, they wouldn't give you a ride home, but in the unlikely event they did, it's policy that they'd have to put cuffs on you.

WelshChappie wrote:If memory serves Me, I am sure Carol opened up and spoke openly about Her Brother Paul saying that before He came to San Francisco He had had some mental issues and had spent some period of time in a psychiatric hospital. 

 I think Carol had agreed to speak about Paul and Zodiac in general and did so in Tom's Chat Room. There is a transcript of that discussion I think, maybe try checking Voigt's Site. I can't go on that site personally I apologize but I threw up the last two times I was there due to the stench of the Bull Shit that filled the atmosphere!

I thought Paul checked himself into a mental facility for a short time due to stress and he felt like he was going to have a mental breakdown. I will double check that because I am probably wrong.

I didn't say Paul was forcefully committed to a mental health institution against His will.  As best I remember from memory,  I think Carol said Paul had a breakdown and was Hospitalized and I don't know if that was under His own free will, or against it.

WelshChappie wrote:I didn't say Paul was forcefully committed to a mental health institution against His will.  As best I remember from memory,  I think Carol said Paul had a breakdown and was Hospitalized and I don't know if that was under His own free will, or against it.

Yeah, I think I remember reading about Carol saying that and actually I think his family did have him committed, but I'm not 100% sure. I guess it doesn't really matter either way. The thing I really wonder is if he met anyone in the mental hospital who had something to do with his death. I think that is probably not likely, but it is a possibility.

ophion1031 wrote:

WelshChappie wrote:I didn't say Paul was forcefully committed to a mental health institution against His will.  As best I remember from memory,  I think Carol said Paul had a breakdown and was Hospitalized and I don't know if that was under His own free will, or against it.

Yeah, I think I remember reading about Carol saying that and actually I think his family did have him committed, but I'm not 100% sure. I guess it doesn't really matter either way. The thing I really wonder is if he met anyone in the mental hospital who had something to do with his death. I think that is probably not likely, but it is a possibility.

 Well patient doctor confidentiality comes into play. Asking the resident psychiatrist: "Doc, You recall any patients talking about their collecting slaves for the afterlife, an afterlife called Paradice with a C, not Parasise with an S, you understand Doctor? Physical Attributes are also required:

White Male. Refuses to walk like normal people, preferring to shuffle like a idiot lumbering His way from A to B. 

 Must also have a blonde colored crew cut with widow peak hairline with free flowing fringe over forehead and by blonde I obviously mean brown hair and brown hair that has a red tint to it that could possibly be showing some Grey but only at the rear. 

Wait Doc, there is more! This person will possibly have seemed to have an affection for All Police, Police whom He may have referred to as 'PIGS' or 'BLUE PIG' even 'THE MEANIES' who drove 'Prowl Cars'? 

 Q. "Do you recall anyone fitting this description Doctor?"
 A. "Not telling You, It's Doctor/Patient Confidentiality."
 Q. "This is not just a .38 Pistol Doc, it's a loaded .38 Pistol and with this development, Care to reconsider your response Doc because I haven't shot anyone for at least 3 weeks and am doing good!"

 Think now Doctor, think Hard!

Lol. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (can't find it now) that it waz Paul's Mom that had him put in the silly shed and it's far from certain that her actions were justified, Altho' they probably were to HER and I have no reason to accuse her of bad intent.
I also am pretty sure that a popular 1960's band called The Beatles (I'm not sure if they ever made it big in the UK but they did OK here for awhile) had a cartoon where the bad guys were called "the Blue Meanies," possibly a symbol for the dreaded po-po.

The Beatles,  a band? Band of what?  

 'The Cockroaches' and their No.1 single and Album entitled 'Green Airplane' wouldn't quite be the same as The Beatles and Yellow Submarine, Would it? Lol.

 But, the 60's was the LSD era so I suppose naming your band after an ugly bug and then singing about a Yellow Submarine, well I suppose it was the norm back then. 

 If I was the band's manager and they came and said "We're calling ourselves 'The Beatles" I would probably reply "Why, what is wrong with you?"   Marketing the next big thing as 'The Beatles' I would think would make readers go 'EWWW, I hate them Bugs'

 Or maybe the Band just aren't very creative with name's? Maybe they sat for several hours thinking of a band name:

 ..."The  Grasshoppers!! No, that's too Hip Hop. Ummm... "The Caterpillars....Na, they are a pest. The Sewer Rodents! That's good! I think. . . Interruption by Lennon as He smashes His fist down squashing a beetle under His fist: "AHHH-HA! GOT IT!" Harrison: Got what John? "One of them f***** Beatles!"  Harrison: That's it, The Beatles!!" Lennon: Ehh? What?

 Maybe they were regretful that Lennon has committed Homicide upon the Record Studio's Resident Beetle and they called themselves the Beetles as tribute to the Deceased, and crushed, Bug that Lennon murdered? 

 The Band were once observed on an elevator while under the influence of LSD and  witnesses stated they heard cries for Help as the Elevators inhabitants believe that the elevator was on fire. I think they may have read the sign above the doors incorrectly....

 "THE ELEVATOR" became "THE INCINERATOR - MUUUUHAHAHAHAHA" 

HEEEELLLLPPP, SOMEONE LET US OUT WE'RE BURNING ALIVE!! 

Apparently bystanders asked "What is wrong with them Men with the English Accent's? Husbands were heard stating "Come along darling it's not polite to stare as the Handicapped English Mental Cases. Come along Doris let's go before they work out how to open the elevator doors and into the corridors!"

I got asked by A French Tourist last week "Excuse M-WA, Are you a doctor Sir?"

 I said "No See Vooooo Play. I am not a doctor. But, I know doctors. I...I...I have been visited Many times, by the doctors! Oui ces La Vous Hate the Frog!

I really do question if I am all there in the head Myself sometimes. 

 My ex Girlfriend drove away and left Me when I announced I was going to walk over to them Police parked up over on the double yellows that they have parked illegally. I asked the officers to please move along or I would issue them a ticket/parking fine. The Plod responded "Yes very good Sir, bit of a comic aren't we? I'd advise you to go away and do so quickly before I arrest you on suspicion of Being drunk and disorderly!" 

 I was dying to temp it and reply "Sir, I'm going to have to ask you to step out of the vehicle as I plan to deal with this by way of Fixed Penalty Fine....." But decided against that because He was a Meanie, as such, no sense of humor.

Anyway, Going back the Thread Topic...

 Earlier in the thread thei idea of Zodiac taking on another Male in anything other than an ambush, sneaky attack from the blind-side. I just couldn't see this killer facing a Male at such close rage (Driver sear - Passenger Seat) and Yesterday I came across A book I bought a couple years back now By Michael Kelleher & Co-Authored by David Van Nuys. 

I just been having a browse through and here is Dr Dave's professional Opinion on the encounter that unfolds as recalled by Hartnell. Van Nuys States:    "Once again, this statement suggests that Zodiac was nervous about the possibility of a direct, face to face confrontation with Bryan Hartnell. At the same time, One has to wonder why He would be concerned about the couple making a grab at His gun when He has the Gun. He knew He was going to kill them but it seems clear in this case that shooting was not enough or His desire here. If He wanted to, He could have walked up and shot both straight away."

 Van Nuys makes a good point here. Clearly Zodiac was there with a plan to kill via Knife opposed to Gun but I don't think it had anything to do with "Shooting isn't enough anymore" for Zodiac and far more likely stabbing rather than shooting was a necessity given the time of day, the location, and the chances of His escaping if He starts firing rounds heard by Park Rangers.

If you really think this whole thing through, it is very unclear why Zodiac didn't kill Joe Stine or he didn't make any public comment to Joe's threat. Why not? I think that should be thoroughly examined. Zodiac probably could have killed Joe with ease and the person most Z-researchers think Z was, well that is the move that person would have made. I don't think he went after Joe because it was not on the agenda and Z is not just 'one lone nut' as most think.

Found Joe Stine's interview where He directly Challenges Zodiac....

WelshChappie wrote:Found Joe Stine's interview where He directly Challenges Zodiac....

Sweet! Thanks for posting it. Cool to see this finally.